National Lap Steels

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 27 Jan 2003 6:23 pm

Anyone own/played one? What model do you own, and what does it sound like? Any other feedback?
Thanks,
DD

Ian McLatchie · Post by **Ian McLatchie** » 27 Jan 2003 7:11 pm

Dana: I've owned quite a few Nationals, including a New Yorker, a Grand Console, a couple of Chicagoans, a Clipper and a Console 8. In general, I'm a bigger fan of the Supro style wrap- around pickups than the more conventional, under-string pickups on most Nationals (the Chicagoan and some other National models have a wrap-around pickup, but I assume with different winding, as they don't tend to sound as 'dirty' as the Supros). However, the best Nationals are excellent sounding instruments. Of all the ones I've owned by far the best were the New Yorker and the Clipper (a very rare model, sort of a National EH-150). These both had a bright, almost bell-like tone and extremely clear harmonics. The greatest weakness compared to a Fender or Rickenbacher is the bottom end: the National bass tends to be pretty ordinary, to my ears at least. Like all Valco-made instruments, Nationals are also excellent players, although the knobs are often awkwardly placed and the molded pickup covers are a damn nuisance. Lots of good Nationals still to be had at reasonable prices too, and the high-end instruments such as the New Yorker, Clipper and the early Dynamics are visually striking.

While I'm responding to a post by Mr. Duplan, let me give a plug to his band, the Kahuna Cowboys Jug Band. I'd seen them mentioned here a number of times before but hadn't had the pleasure of hearing them 'til Dana sent me a copy of the CD a couple of weeks ago. What a fun album! Great mix of Hawaiian and country standards, along with some terrific original tunes in the same style. Dana's playing, on National tricone, Bigsby and Fender steels, is so sweet and clean throughout, and the production is first rate. Listening to this one has really helped brighten those cold winter
mornings on my drive to work. You definitely want to see these guys live if you get the chance! [This message was edited by Ian McLatchie on 27 January 2003 at 07:14 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 27 Jan 2003 7:55 pm

I bought a National New Yorker in 1946. I would give anything to have it back. Sold it to a pawn shop in 1955 for 25 dollars. And bought a Fender 3 neck custom for 100. In fact I wish I still had both of them. They both had unique tones. But that National had the sweetest tone I have ever gotten. Sadly I did not realize it when I sold it.

For those of you that do not know what a National New Yorker is. It is basically retangular shaped with several levels of indentations longitudenally making up the body. And where these indentations started they alternated black and white colors to the top. If one stood it up on end, it kinda mimicked the Empire State Bldg. Thus its name.

In addition the model I had used colored roman numeral fret markers. Also, the tone control knob was like the old Fender amp pointed vol and tone control knobs and it was on the right end of the guitar. I am not sure but the tone control may have been especially wired as they had printed 3 different tone modes around the knob. Back then I was a kid and knew nothing about electronics. Or anything else for that matter. Some say that is still the case. I suspect there is some merit to that.

The Volume control was in the standard place just in front and to the right side of the picking fingers. The pu was similar to the Ricks in that the pu up coil was wrapped by a "tunneled" magnet assy. So pole pieces were used within the coil to direct the magnetic flux lines; instead of individual magnets; like others used then; as many present pu's use today.

Oh how I wish I had that guitar. It was a beauty.

"Ve grrow too soon uldt, un too late schmart!"

oh well,

carl

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 27 Jan 2003 8:11 pm

Gruhn's Guide says that National only used the string-through pickup in the "early 1940s" and that the single row of six poles was used by National 1942-68. And Supro used the string-through design 1939-68.

I've seen Nationals that would seem to contradict those exact dates, but if you prefer the string-through design, you're more likely to find it on a Supro, Oahu, Silvertone, et al.

That being said, I think it's hard to beat the aesthetics of National lap steels -- they really did some great art deco designs.

Jim Landers · Post by **Jim Landers** » 27 Jan 2003 8:36 pm

I have a '35 and '37 Bakelite, a '38 Gibson EH-150, and a '40 National New Yorker. They are all great sounding guitars, and I don't feel the New Yorker is out-classed by any of the others. It has a different sound than the others, but in it's own way, just as nice.

I have also had a couple of post-war, late '40s and early '50s Nationals, that to me did'nt sound anywheres near as good as the pre-war model. One of them was a '48 New Yorker and the other was a triple 8 console model. I'm not saying that the post-war models did'nt sound good, because they did, but they just did't sound "as" good to me.

As mentioned by one of the other posters, the pick-up cover on the New Yorker can get in your way, but you can take it off and that solves most of that problem. I took the cover off mine the day I got the guitar and it's been in the case and no problem since then.

I think the New Yorker would be an excellent choice, and compared to the Bakelites and Gibsons etc., the price is quite reasonable. You should'nt have to take a loan out on your house to get one. I see them (including the pre-war models) selling on Ebay for $300 to $500.

Jim

Zayit · Post by **Zayit** » 27 Jan 2003 11:37 pm

Hi Dana, Ian, Rus & others!

I own a Chicagoan string-through. It has great bass end & positively roars. I keep it in an "E7th" tuning & schlep it like a poor man's double neck along to jams where there will be alot of straight rock songs in "E" & "A" or straight 12-bar. My other axes are in 6th tunings.

It's tone is somewhere between the sweeter Magnatones and higher-end Nationals on one side & the darker sounding Rick's & Epi's on the other. My Chicagoan does not 'moan' & doesnt 'cut through' the mix like a Fender, but sounds great for what I want out of it.

If I have a knock on the Chicagoan, its that it has narrower string spacings than my Rick's, my 1936 Epiphone, & my Frypan. It also has a longer scale length, so I dont play it as much as my other guitars.

Dana, a great comparison (if you can find it) is on Arlen Roth's instructional video. There's nothing Arlen can teach YOU about playing steel, but if you borrow the video, you can see one player play a Dynamic, a 1936 Epiphone & a pre-war Bakelite Rick in the same room with the same small tube amp.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 28 Jan 2003 4:36 am

This is my favorite New Yorker...it has 2 pick ups with a blend control...sweet
http://www.skobrien.com/sshawaiian/Photos/reinlieb/photos.htm

This model has a much better sound and tone than my pre war models.

[This message was edited by HowardR on 28 January 2003 at 04:41 AM.]

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 28 Jan 2003 6:29 am

I rest my case about the aesthetics ... that's a gorgeous guitar, Howard!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 28 Jan 2003 8:17 am

Megga Dittos Rusty.

Howard, In all my years I have NEVER seen that model Natiional. Wow, it is indeed gorgeous. You must be proud as a peacock to own that incredible instrument.

I thought my National built in the early 40's was beautiful, but man, that really takes the cake.

May Jesus bring you joy always,

carl

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 28 Jan 2003 9:01 am

Howard, that is a beautiful lap steel. Is that a bone nut on there? Would you happen to know what kind of wood it's made of? I love the design, that sure is a looker!

Post by **Joey Ace** » 28 Jan 2003 9:29 am

Here's mine. Chicagoian?

I wouldn't brag about the tone.
Distorted thru a POD or Boogie PreAmp it has a good modern-heavy sound. Clean it's weak.

But it looks way cool, IMO.

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 28 Jan 2003 9:39 am

Boy Joey, thats about as hip as it gets. You and Howard got me convinced I gotta try and pick one up one day. Too cool...

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 28 Jan 2003 3:32 pm

Jesse, I really don't know the answers to your questions. Perhaps somebody who knows would "chime" in and enlighten us.

Ian McLatchie · Post by **Ian McLatchie** » 28 Jan 2003 4:34 pm

Jim: you mention that the pickup cover is removable on the New Yorker. That's also true of most National models, but not all. The Clipper I mentioned (man, I hated to let that guitar go, and should at least have taken some photos before I did!) was one of the most beautiful lap steels I've ever seen: sunburst body, almost identical in shape and dimensions to an EH-150; black and ivory stairstep fretboard; a crinkle finish, ivory-colored pickup cover with cutouts along the sides that echoed the stairstep motif of the position markers. As beautiful as it was, though, that cover seriously interfered with the right hand position. That was my only knock on the guitar, however, as it was a great sounding instrument, even better than the '47 New Yorker I owned at the same time.
I've never seen even a photo of another Clipper, and would be really pleased if someone could post one, but I'm not holding my breath. I think this must be one of the rarest National models.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 28 Jan 2003 4:39 pm

I own a National Dynamic and a New Yorker. The New Yorker is a bit bright for my tastes, but sounds wonderful in C6 tuning. I use the Dynamic in my band Go Van Gogh, and its sound fits the band perfectly so far.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 28 Jan 2003 5:24 pm

Someone out there might be interested in a doubleneck National at a shop here in Seattle: http://www.emeraldcityguitars.com/50s_national_dblneck.htm

I haven't been down to take a close look (or listen) but will be happy to pass along my inexpert opinion once I have.[This message was edited by Russ Young on 28 January 2003 at 05:25 PM.]

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 28 Jan 2003 7:22 pm

Speaking of New Yorkers, this is nice...

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 29 Jan 2003 5:28 am

Ian:
Thanks for the kind words about the Kahuna Cowboys. It sure is a fun band to play in, and folks seem to enjoy the live show.

Re. Prewar National New Yorkers, does the 8-string version have adequate string spacing, or did they just cram an extra string on the 6 or 7-string neck like Rickenbacher did?
DD

James Brown · Post by **James Brown** » 29 Jan 2003 7:50 am

I just sold a 1950's National on the Ebay and I have one of those New Yorkers from the 40'S.Side by side,on the same amp and settings the 40's National sounded better to me.That was the reason I sold the 50"s National.

Michael Miller · Post by **Michael Miller** » 29 Jan 2003 10:00 am

I have a couple of questions. At what point in time were Nationals available with detachable legs? It seems like I have only seen them on late 50's and 60's models. Also, are these later guitars good players? Specifically the Dynamic model. Thanks.

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 29 Jan 2003 12:51 pm

Since I don't have my copy of Gruhn's Guide to Vintage Guitars here, I can't answer the first question.
The National Dynamic is an excellent "player" and has been used by both Greg Leisz and David Lindley. My Dynamic is my current favorite of the 14 or so lap steels I own.

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 29 Jan 2003 5:11 pm

Legs were offered as an option in 1954, according to Gruhn's[This message was edited by HowardR on 29 January 2003 at 05:11 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 29 Jan 2003 5:53 pm

check this....daddy-o
http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2504173269&category=621

Russ Young · Post by **Russ Young** » 30 Jan 2003 7:04 am

Greg Leisz plays his National Dynamic on the new "Legends of the Incredible Lap Steel" CD, and if you've never heard Freddie Roulette playing his Dynamic ... well, you've just got to hear it for yourself.

mikey · Post by **mikey** » 30 Jan 2003 3:36 pm

I played 2 New Yorkers in my life, a single 6 and a double 8....They both sounded pretty much the same, real "raw" because of that pickup...the chimes/settings switch didn't seem to do anything, probably didn't work...just that big old humbucker (on both guitars, the same)...I liked the single 6 for size and ease...but tone is no Stringmaster, I'll tell you that...If the market makes THOSE go up in value..I'd be shocked....National electrics are decent cheap guitars...
Mike