Any ergonomic experts?

[Pete Martin]

I’m playing a 56 Stringmaster D8, 24 ½” string length, which of course has legs and I’ve got a couple of ergonomic questions. Since I’m so new at this, any opinions are appreciated. I’m playing western swing and like the chordal soloing sound much more than single note style, so I will probably be using the bar flat on the strings way more often.

I’m wondering what height I should make the guitar? Should my hands be at the same height, above or below my elbows?

Should I center the width of the guitar with the center of my body, 12th fret? Should my body be closer to the bridge or the nut?

Where should I sit in relation to the guitar? Parallel to the front of my chest, tuners or pickups closer or farther away?

I’ve played nd taught professionally since the 70s, now almost 70 myself. I had to stop playing music for a few years in the 90s due to overuse and started studying ergonomics. I know a good bit about mechanics on guitar, mandolin and fiddle, but know nothing about steel. I only used a bow or flatpick in the past, not fingerpicking so anything on that is welcomed.

Also a few days ago, I was messing around with my bar grip and started playing a bunch of scales and single note lines for a few hours. At the end of that I had a lot of pain in my left forearm. Feels much better after a few days off but I need to pay much closer attention to this! I usually don’t play any more that about 10 minutes before taking a short break, but lost track of time. I will start setting the timer on my phone again!

Thanks all!
Pete

[Ricky Davis]

[Mike Neer]

Are you using a bullet bar?

My one suggestion is that if you are using a bullet bar, there isn’t much need to grip it—you are simply guiding it. And if you are playing single notes and like to lift the tail of the bar off the strings, it takes jut a light touch to hold on to the bar. There should be little to no tension in your left hand.

[Steven Wilson]

Pete - I have the same instrument and love that vintage vibe. One suggestion is to look at some videos of Chris Scruggs. He plays standing (or sitting) toward the right end of the guitar; when sitting his legs actually straddle the right legs which puts his left hand near the center of the fretboard. I have been trying this and it seems comfortable/practical. He also uses a Steven's-type bar which, for me, is easier to pick up and move than a bullet bar. I know there is disagreement about what works best, but for some of us that started with the dobro it's intuitive. I use a bullet bar on the pedal steel because the pedals and levers are doing the work more than my left hand. I think the ergonomics for all of these instruments are similar in terms of keeping your back and wrists straight, but with the Stringmaster, standing/sitting to the right makes sense. It's similar to how you hold a lapsteel or dobro. Steve

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Pete,

I'd point to the great Jerry Byrd.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXEP5DFDMM4

Jerry would have the back legs a little taller than the front legs. This tilts the steel slightly away from the player and towards the audience.

If you look at Jerry's playing position, it's very natural. His hands and wrists are aligned, and the bend at his elbows is at a very comfortable position, almost at rest.

Jerry was about 80 years old at the time of this video, and he's still playing extremely well. He must have been doing something right.

If you look on YouTube of Jerry playing at various conventions in the 90's, he has his steels set up on stage in a similar fashion. That is, unless he played them in his lap.

When I do use a stand, I set up my steels in the same way and can attest that it is a very comfortable playing position. It also has the added benefit of some additional showmanship because the audience can witness you playing along the top of your fretboard.

You just have to experiment with the height of the legs and tilt angle that works for you.

Beware! If you drop your bar it rolls right off the steel and onto the floor! lol.

My best advice to you is to watch all the videos you can find of Jerry Byrd playing. There are quite a few up on YouTube of him playing in his later years, and he's STILL killing it. That's a very impressive feat.

Jerry was a perfectionist, and he was constantly honing his craft all the way into his old age. He made it to 85.

From what I've heard from people who took lessons from Jerry, he was a big stickler for proper playing position and ergonomics. It seemed that Jerry spent quite a lot thought engaging that topic.

Here is the entire performance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHX-eW9E-zI

[Pete Martin]

Wow, thanks Mike K! I know great players make everything look easy, but that’s because they’ve usually worked very hard to play that way.

Jerry’s elbows are definitely above his hands and it looks like it goes well with how he sets up the steel with the front lower. Very little bend in either wrist. Looks like his right arm is in line with the tailpiece end of the steel. The center of his chest is about fret 19 or 20. The pinkie on his right hand touching easily against the body of the steel. His right ring finger is very softly brushing or suspended. Jerrys right leg is just inside of the steels right back leg.

None of this seems accidental. Looks to me this was very deliberately practiced. I’m sure I will see more, but this answers so many questions.

Thanks so much Mike!!!

[Pete Martin]

Mike Neer, thank you for your reply. I really like you’re playing and your sound.

I see you often hold you bar with the index finger a bit to the thumb side. Do you find this advantageous?

[Bruce Roger]

As a yoga practitioner, I study how to sit erect, with comfort and stability, for an extended period of time. Any deviation from the midline entails more work, if not strain.

Your question on ergonomics has led me to explore how to play steel with the best posture, and, thus, the least amount of strain. What I looked for in the videos of these steel guitar masters:

a) angle of upper arm to forearm (i.e., height of elbow relative to wrist);

b) shoulder and elbow position relative to midline of the torso (i.e., how far shoulder or elbow is forward); and

c) head position (i.e., how far head is forward of torso). Note that all players look down at the fretboard, which causes the upper back to hunch forward.


1) Jerry Byrd and Rose Sinclair are the only players I observed who played a console while standing. In the video link cited above, Jerry’s left elbow was much higher than his left wrist: i.e., the forearm slopes down to the steel guitar. Thus, his left wrist was always partially extended. I presume he sloped the steel to mitigate that.

When playing the front (further) neck, his elbow was way forward of the midline of the chest, which caused him to hunch over the steel. When playing the back (closer) neck, his elbow was much further back, so that his upper arm was almost perpendicular to the floor. Then he didn’t need to hunch over as much.

He is most erect when playing the National Tricone in his lap. Most of his right forearm rests on the guitar, and the left forearm is almost parallel to the floor.

2) Rose Sinclair’s elbow and hand positions are very similar to Jerry Byrd’s. I also observed that she places her right foot forward while playing the further neck (to prevent falling forward).

3-4) Hal Rugg and Buddy Emmons (Live at Bell Cove 2002): Both were seated at the pedal steel guitar with the left elbow lower than the C6 (closer) neck. When playing the E9 neck, the right forearm usually rested forward on the C6 neck.

When pointing the bar down, Hal would lift his left elbow, shrug his left shoulder, and slightly flex his left ventral forearm and wrist.

Buddy’s upper arm was longer. Buddy never lifted his left elbow or shoulder when playing the C6 neck. He displayed the least amount of unnecessary movement of any of those I observed. I presume that caused the least strain, when compared to the others.

5) Lloyd Green (Conversation 2018). He is hunched over, habitually leaning to his right to rest the right forearm, just past the elbow, on the pad of the SD10. Because the pad is lower than the strings of a C6 neck, the right wrist goes into extension after picking.

His left elbow is about at string height. However, with his left shoulder so high, it appears that the left forearm never touches the pad. I presume that the elevated left shoulder, combined with bearing so much weight on the right, allows him the freedom to move the bar without bearing weight on the left.

6) Kayton Roberts (2015) had to bend forward when sitting and playing his console steel on a low stand to keep his elbows down.

7) Bobby Ingano (2016, 2018) supports his left foot up on a footrest to raise up the neck of the Frypan neck on his lap. His left elbow is slightly higher than that of Buddy and Hal. He never moves his left shoulder.

Concluding Remarks
Because each of us is so different, there can be few guidelines that work with absolutely everyone; there is only an ideal. And these ideals are necessarily conditioned by individual traits and peculiarities, disease, injury, and other limitations.

I present these postural observations based on 45 years of yoga practice, that has led to an understanding of how bad posture compromises mobility, strength, and endurance.

Bruce
PS I’ve played lap steel for 5 years, guitar for 60 years, and mandolin professionally for a few years professionally 50 years ago.