C6 / A6? Reason for preference?

[Chris Tulloch]

Hi
I’m about to start building an 8-string. I’ve not been playing long, but starting to feel confident. I have a couple of 6-string steels already; one tuned to C6 (high G) and one to A6. I really can’t decide where to tune the 8-string!! I love the sound of 8-string Cindy Cashdollar and Jeremy Wakefield in C6 and then of course Eddie Rivers (especially with Wayne Hancock) and Kayton Roberts in A6.

I also love the sound of the 50s hillbilly steel players, things like ‘Mobile Alabama’ Curtis Gordon, who probably did it all on 6-strings!

I play lap steel when the band gets together & we do a bit of 50's rock’n’roll, a bit of country, some sort-of bluegrass and will attempt anything I feel I can make a stab at. To my mind, the two tunings are the same just different positions on the fretboard?

I know people have preferences .. I would just like to know why!!
Thanks in advance
Chris

[Bill McCloskey]

If you eventually want to play pedal steel, C6 makes more sense. There is more instructional material for C6 as well. And there is just a larger market for C6 in general

[Michael Kiese]

Aloha Chris,

C6 and A6, for all intents and purposes are the same tuning, just transposed 3 frets away from each other. It's like using a Capo on Guitar.

For pragmatic purposes, as in getting through a 3 hour live gig, choosing C6 or A6 is just a matter of what song keys are most played in your band's repertoire.

I really like playing in the Key of F on the C6 neck because it's right at the 5th fret. When I play open strings, the C chord is your V chord. For me, the 5th fret is just a comfortable and easy position to play as my "home key position". The most comfortable positions on steel, to me, are where the home key of the song you're playing is either open strings, 5th fret, or 7th fret. So that would be the keys of C, F, and G.

The same phenomenon occurs on the A6 neck, but for the Keys of A, D, and E.

So if the "bread and butter" keys of your band hover around C, F, and G, pick the C6 tuning. If they are A, D, and E, pick the A6 tuning.

Most bands don't venture outside of 3-5 keys in their setlists, and that's primarily because keys are the Singer's preference. Most singers gravitate towards a handful of keys that suit their range. That pretty much dictates everything.

A lot of times if a player has a double or triple neck steel guitar, most often I find that the tunings are some kind of versions of A6, C6, and E13. That covers just about all the keys and idiomatic steel vocabulary you'd need for jazz standards, western swing, Hawaiian music, and even pop music.

Or, you can just be lazy like me and bring one lap steel to your gig and play C6 for everything.

There are no solutions, only trade-offs.

Hope that helped! Enjoy!

[Jack Hanson]

On my six strings, I prefer C6. On my seven strings, I prefer A6. Why? I like the root on the bottom (lowest) string. And I dislike the relatively wimpy sound of a top string pitched higher than an E. I've only had one eight string instrument, and I just couldn't wrap my crusty old brain around the extra string, so I peddled it. If you're going the eight string route, seems to me either A6 or C6 would be fine. But a A13 or C13 variant might be better yet.

[Mike Neer]

A6 has a darker timbre with the 4th and 5th strings (tuned a whole step apart) both being wound. I think the G and A of the C6 tuning sound much better for all melodic and harmonic purposes, but that is just my opinion. On the other hand, I do not like a high G string, so I prefer to build out from the bottom. I do believe the E C A G E C A G tuning (top to bottom) is the ultimate for melody and chord work; however, we are talking about partial 3-4 note vocings, not full strum chords like you can get with an extended tuning.

If you are looking to avoid slanting as much as possible, A6 is your tuning. If you want to roll up your sleeves and have some fun with it, try the tuning I suggested above.

[Chris Tulloch]

If you eventually want to play pedal steel, C6 makes more sense. There is more instructional material for C6 as well. And there is just a larger market for C6 in general

Thanks Bill
Makes sense (about instructional material). One of these days I plan to rebuild (re-body) an old Selmer Goldtone that’s had its body hideously hacked-about and THAT will definitely be a C6.

Reading through some of the other comments I may stay with A6 for the 8-string. I plan to stay with lap-steel & not move to pedal-steel; it’s only one of several instruments I play and - to be honest - I prefer the naive sound of the lap-steel!

Thanks for your input.

[Chris Tulloch]

Aloha Chris,

C6 and A6, for all intents and purposes are the same tuning, just transposed 3 frets away from each other. It's like using a Capo on Guitar.

For pragmatic purposes, as in getting through a 3 hour live gig, choosing C6 or A6 is just a matter of what song keys are most played in your band's repertoire.

I really like playing in the Key of F on the C6 neck because it's right at the 5th fret. When I play open strings, the C chord is your V chord. For me, the 5th fret is just a comfortable and easy position to play as my "home key position". The most comfortable positions on steel, to me, are where the home key of the song you're playing is either open strings, 5th fret, or 7th fret. So that would be the keys of C, F, and G.

The same phenomenon occurs on the A6 neck, but for the Keys of A, D, and E.

So if the "bread and butter" keys of your band hover around C, F, and G, pick the C6 tuning. If they are A, D, and E, pick the A6 tuning.

Most bands don't venture outside of 3-5 keys in their setlists, and that's primarily because keys are the Singer's preference. Most singers gravitate towards a handful of keys that suit their range. That pretty much dictates everything.

A lot of times if a player has a double or triple neck steel guitar, most often I find that the tunings are some kind of versions of A6, C6, and E13. That covers just about all the keys and idiomatic steel vocabulary you'd need for jazz standards, western swing, Hawaiian music, and even pop music.

Or, you can just be lazy like me and bring one lap steel to your gig and play C6 for everything.

There are no solutions, only trade-offs.

Hope that helped! Enjoy!

Thanks Michael. Very sensible suggestions! Complications being that I play along with various musicians, some who are in C & G .. some who are in A, D & E!! Gulp. I’ll work it out!
Thanks for the input; enjoyable to read
Chris

[Chris Tulloch]

On my six strings, I prefer C6. On my seven strings, I prefer A6. Why? I like the root on the bottom (lowest) string. And I dislike the relatively wimpy sound of a top string pitched higher than an E. I've only had one eight string instrument, and I just couldn't wrap my crusty old brain around the extra string, so I peddled it. If you're going the eight string route, seems to me either A6 or C6 would be fine. But a A13 or C13 variant might be better yet.

Thanks Jack. So far I have been trying out C6 with the high G on a spare 6-string steel, whereas the 6-string A6 has pretty-near the correct stringing. I haven’t noticed the top string sounding thin - but a lot of people appear to feel the same as you. I’ve been trying that one out at home, whereas I have gigged with the A6. I have got hooked on having a 5th on top.

BTW these are all 22.5” steels.

Thanks for your suggestions .. I may research A13 & C13

Chris

[Chris Tulloch]

A6 has a darker timbre with the 4th and 5th strings (tuned a whole step apart) both being wound. I think the G and A of the C6 tuning sound much better for all melodic and harmonic purposes, but that is just my opinion. On the other hand, I do not like a high G string, so I prefer to build out from the bottom. I do believe the E C A G E C A G tuning (top to bottom) is the ultimate for melody and chord work; however, we are talking about partial 3-4 note vocings, not full strum chords like you can get with an extended tuning.

If you are looking to avoid slanting as much as possible, A6 is your tuning. If you want to roll up your sleeves and have some fun with it, try the tuning I suggested above.

Thanks Mike. It’s that old “G top string” thing again … trouble is I’m hooked on the 5th on top. I think I’m going to have to bite the bullet & be prepared to restring it several times in the different tunings until I’ve found what suits me. As I said to Jack (previous comment) I haven't yet “heard" that wimpish G string yet; maybe because I’ve strung up the old Selmer to High C6 and not yet actually gigged it …

I like slanting .. not doing it so good as yet, but getting better

Good suggestions, thank you.
Chris

[Michael Kiese]

Thanks Michael. Very sensible suggestions! Complications being that I play along with various musicians, some who are in C & G .. some who are in A, D & E!! Gulp. I’ll work it out!
Thanks for the input; enjoyable to read
Chris

You're very welcome Chris! I'm glad if I have been helpful.

Those keys you mentioned are literally all the CAGED chords, so it makes a lot of sense. Those are all the most common gigging keys, especially for acoustic guitar singer/songwriter types. The good news is that you can play all those keys on C6 or A6. Or, you can get a double neck and have both (but it's big, heavy, and more to carry). Pick your poison, lol.

If you find yourself playing Jazz with horn players, you'll encounter more flat keys. Bb, Eb, and F are the most common flat keys.

Like I mentioned before, there are no solutions, only trade-offs. Just figure out what you need to do to get the most of what you want, and you'll be fine.

I choose to just go with my Rickenbacher 6 string ACE in C6 and make it work for everything I play. When I play with my Hawaiian Band, I'm the lead singer and I also play acoustic guitar. With all the gear I bring, and all the musical territory/responsibility I'm covering, I'm very loathe to bring a second steel.

Oh, also there is a great benefit of being the lead singer AND band leader of your band is that YOU get to dictate keys. lol. A lot of Hawaiian music is in C, F, and G so C6 works well. Sometimes I'll sing and play steel. Most of the time I sing and play Acoustic. I invite my bandmates to sing and lead songs too. Our hula dancer doubles as a lead singer, and our Ukulele player is a good singer as well. So we all cover down and share the spotlight. It's nice. We have fun. I switch from being lead singer, and backing up other singers with steel. I also throw a couple of instrumentals each set that features the steel. We cover a lot of bases while not having to work too hard individually.

There is nothing more Hawaiian than not working any harder than what is absolutely necessary. lol.

Never forget, the whole point of music is to enjoy and have fun, so ENJOY!

If I'm not having fun, then neither is my audience, and nor is the guy who hired me to play at his venue. Cut out anything that makes it a drag.

People tend to really overcomplicate things.

Just my 2¢.

[Chris Tulloch]

Aloha! Thanks Mike

[Paul Seager]

Fully agree that C6 has the most education material so that is where most lap-steelers begin.

To Bill's comment on pedal steel, I would equally argue that if you move to E9 pedal steel, A&B pedals down puts you in A6, not exactly the same as lap A6 but close enough to call it a friend!

However for me, Michael Kiese makes a most valid point. If your band or in my case, singer needs songs in certain keys, A6 might be the better choice. I always consider frets 3 to 15 as my work area and that's where I want find my main keys.

Yet another personal reason applies when one uses a multi-neck instrument. My D-8 choice has been A6 and a variation on B11. I like B11 for chord work and, as it shares the first 4 strings with A6, one can learn most melodies on one and apply to both. I guess there is an affinitive tuning to C6 but I moved to A6 for the singer reason so long ago I've never checked it out.

My preference is to have the fifth on top and, aligning with my B11 argument, if I play open A or even G, I don't have to think about soloing too much. When I learnt C6, it was the classic 6 string variant with the 3rd on top. I later tried it with the 5th on string 1 but didn't care for the tone.

Classic C6 and A6 are pretty close to each so just try both. As far as tunings go, we play a no-rules instrument. Do what works for you. Ain't that nice!

[Michael Kiese]

I would equally argue that if you move to E9 pedal steel, A&B pedals down puts you in A6, not exactly the same as lap A6 but close enough to call it a friend!

Aloha Paul,

I didn't know that! Good to know, thanks for sharing. I'm going to put that information in my back pocket.

Yet another personal reason applies when one uses a multi-neck instrument. My D-8 choice has been A6 and a variation on B11. I like B11 for chord work and, as it shares the first 4 strings with A6, one can learn most melodies on one and apply to both. I guess there is an affinitive tuning to C6 but I moved to A6 for the singer reason so long ago I've never checked it out.

I like B11 a lot too. It's a very useful tuning. You get a nice lush Dominant 7 chord just 2 frets down from any major 6 chord on the straight bar.

The B major triad is right in-between A and C. I find it's quicker to re-tune from A6 to B11, than C6 to B11. It's easier to tune UP a whole step from A major triad to B major triad, than to tune DOWN a half step from C major triad to B major triad for tuning stability. Therefore, I have grown accustomed to changing my A6 to B11 on my Q8 when practicing.

Going between A6 and B11 mid-song is a GREAT use case btw, especially since they share the top 4 strings. I have not considered that before. I'm going to try that! Thank you for pointing it out.

Here's something I want to offer you: consider keeping your B11 neck, and retune it to C6 for one setlist. You'll get the benefit of using your current setup exactly how you use it right now, but you add the handy ability to add C6 to your repertoire. Then you'd get the added benefit of playing C, F, and G in very comfortable positions and open note string runs/licks in a different key. There are players who "poo poo" having A6 and C6 on a D8, or T8 citing that they are too similar. I think it's just super practical, they are similar and that's the point, lol. Helps you get through a long gig much easier, especially if you're playing a lot of unrehearsed songs off the cuff.

The audience doesn't know or care what tunings we use. They just like how steel sounds.

A lot of Hawaiian musicians like to play in C, F, and G. But I'll get some guys who like to play in D and E. A lot of Hawaiian Acoustic guitar players LOVE James Taylor, so I can find myself playing in D because they like that James Taylor sound of playing that D shape.

Playing in D and E is a pain in the neck on C6. I can make it work, but I don't like having fret 2 and fret 4 as my home position. On A6 they move to frets 5 and 7, and all my licks/passages/ideas in F and G on C6 directly transpose with no fuss.

What I'd do is adjust your setlist so that all your B11 work is in, say set one. Then during the break, tune the B11 neck to C6 for set 2, and retune it back to B11 for Set 3.

Conversely, you can put all the B11 songs at the beginning of a setlist, then quickly retune it to C6 and leave it in C6 for the remainder of the set.

Personally, I refrain from retuning mid-set. I like to minimize downtime between songs, when you're playing live music you generate energy in the audience, and you lose all that energy between songs with banter and dead space. But it can certainly be done, especially if you have good bandmates who know how to keep the audience engaged.

Just wanted to offer that notion to you in case if you have not considered it. C is arguably the most common key in music. It's nice to play in the Key of C using C6. Also Sleepwalk is in C. It's the most recognizable song in the steel guitar repertoire.

Thank you for pointing out A6 and B11 being used in tandem. That's very, very handy! I'm definitely going to try that out on my Q8.

[Tim Whitlock]

I know a lot of players like the C6 with a G on top. I prefer C6 with an E on top because it can be easily retuned to A6, and because the high G sounds too thin for me. This gives you 1) C6 with the relative minor on the top three string and 2) A6 with a major triad on the top three strings, like your C6 with the high G. The best of both worlds with a fuller sound.

[BJ Burbach]

Like Mike Neer said, I just can't leave the high E behind but likewise, can't leave that low C and Bb, so it is a C13 strummer for me for lap and tricone.
I built an 8 stringer for B11, but then Rich resurfaced and now it's G6, for lap and dobro. Learning both and I keep C6 and G6 in separate rooms. Somehow it helps.
BJ

[Jack Hanson]

I know a lot of players like the C6 with a G on top. I prefer C6 with an E on top because it can be easily retuned to A6, and because the high G sounds too thin for me. This gives you 1) C6 with the relative minor on the top three string and 2) A6 with a major triad on the top three strings, like your C6 with the high G. The best of both worlds with a fuller sound.

Agreed! My sentiments exactly.

[David M Brown]

The Billy Hew Len tapes have some discussion concerning why he uses A6 rather than other tunings.

https://archive.org/details/LenThree03

[Michael Kiese]

The Billy Hew Len tapes have some discussion concerning why he uses A6 rather than other tunings.

https://archive.org/details/LenThree03

Hi David!

Thanks for sharing, I was unaware of that link!

[Michael Kiese]

I know a lot of players like the C6 with a G on top. I prefer C6 with an E on top because it can be easily retuned to A6, and because the high G sounds too thin for me. This gives you 1) C6 with the relative minor on the top three string and 2) A6 with a major triad on the top three strings, like your C6 with the high G. The best of both worlds with a fuller sound.

Agreed! My sentiments exactly.

That makes a lot of sense.

The trade off is:
1) having to re-tune during the set, or in between sets.

2) unbalanced string tension: increased tension on the two C# strings, and decreased tension on the F# string.

It certainly is a VERY handy option that can get you out of a bind if you only bring one steel to a performance.

I quickly made a 25 ftlb C6 custom string set for a 22.5" scale guitar just now. As you can see, if you keep the same string set for 25 ftlb C6, and you re-tune it to A6, the C# strings increase by about 3 ftlbs, and the F# string decreases by about 3 ftlbs.

After looking at the tension data, it's a very pragmatic option. 28 ftlbs is pushing it, almost too tight. But I'm sure with enough fiddling with gauges, one could make a very usable custom string set to go back and forth from C6 to A6.

[David M Brown]

The Billy Hew Len tapes have some discussion concerning why he uses A6 rather than other tunings.

https://archive.org/details/LenThree03

Hi David!

Thanks for sharing, I was unaware of that link!

Happy to help!

I tend to use A6 more than other tunings, maybe because I started playing with a old A low bass method book and am used to A C# E on top.

[Tony Oresteen]

I like both. The closest neck of my Quad is A6. The #2 neck is C6. When I want more bass I jump down to A6. I'd suggest you build a D8 and have both. Then see which one works best for YOU. Maybe you keep both or keep one and add B11 or E13.

I like more tension than 25lbs per sting that Michael Kiese posted. Here's what I like:

C6 and A6 225 scale 500.jpg

Use what YOU like.

Good luck!

[Anthony Parish]

One suggestion is to choose the same tuning as the player whose music is your inspiration.

In this video of Eddie Rivers from Asleep at the Wheel, he says A6 is like C6 but it sounds "a little meatier".
https://youtu.be/rARCcW3I0K4?si=-LxnHYZh3M9jHQIy

If it's good enough for Eddie, it's good enough for me!

[Pete Martin]

I went to A6 when I got my D8 Stringmaster and it sounds better to my ear than C6 did. Could easily be the longer scale length of it over my EH125. Also liked it as my favs Herb and Eddie play this tuning and it has more of their sound than C6.

I am a beginner so take my opinion skeptically but have played music for 60 years and know a tone I like.

[Chris Tulloch]

I’ve only just caught up with all your really helpful comments … so I can’t reply individually - but thank you. And I love the response from Anthony ... "choose the same tuning as the player whose music is your inspiration”. Perfect!! (and yes, it IS Eddie Rivers!!)
Chris