Scale/String length question

[Pete Martin]

What scale lengths do you pros play? Are there strengths and weaknesses to each? Learning Western Swing.

Just curious. My new to me 40's EH125 has about a 23" scale length. I am 6' 4" and playing above the 12th fret or so is tough as my body gets in the way of my arm. Also the fret width is very small up high. I was wondering if a longer scale length would be easier to get to for a tall person and/or easier to play in tune up high?

I've been playing 2 weeks and I'm addicted. Been thinking of a double 8 console, especially a 50's Fender. Love the way they look and sound. I am already seeing limitations of one tuning and only 6 strings.

Thanks!

[Noah Miller]

I'm hardly a pro, but I'll answer anyway. My steels range from 22.5" to 25". A longer scale makes intonation a little easier, especially when slanting, but I tend to prefer the sound of a shorter scale. I don't think the player's height enters into it.

[Pete Martin]

Noah, can you describe what the sound difference is to you? Thanks!

[Noah Miller]

Everything else being equal - which is rarely the case, but when it is - a shorter scale will have a bit slower attack, giving the instrument a little more "thump". I find this helps in note separation when playing the same note several times in a row. A shorter scale puts a little more emphasis on the mids, whereas a longer scale puts a little more emphasis on the highs. A longer scale also tends to give more sustain because the strings are at a higher tension.

[Mike Neer]

In my experience, the upper and lower extremities of the neck are where you notice the difference in scale length. My main guitars are 25” scale but I also play short scale instruments—I feel you really need to be able to play both and learn to make the adjustments.

Anyway, when you get above the 15th fret, it becomes a little more difficult to nail pitches with a fatter bar and the tone seems to suffer a bit; the opposite is true of a longer scale. I feel I can play above the 24th fret with some accuracy and still have some bell-like tone (it could also be the Clinesmiths I play). On the other end of the neck, it is a little more difficult to nail more extreme slants on a long scale neck. That little extra distance in the frets really makes it a challenge. That said, my preference is for long scale.

[Michael Kiese]

Hi,

I'll chime in here.

String physics are string physics. A string is a string. Strings all behave the same way, regardless of instrument.

Short scale means it takes less tension to reach the required note, given the same gauge string.

Long scale means it takes more tension to reach the required note, give the same gauge string.

So just think about the difference between a Les Paul (24 3/4" scale length), and a Telecaster (25.5" scale length). Gibsons and Fenders sound different for a reason, and scale length is one of the largest contributing factors.

In my opinion, shorter scale length guitars are mellower sounding. Longer scale lengths are bolder sounding. I personally prefer the bolder sound. But I like both.

I'll echo what Noah said about slants and intonation being a bit easier on long scale steels. There is more real estate on the string to play with on a long scale guitar. More forgiving.

Having said that, good intonation and slants on short scales is definitely possible. In fact, it's good practice to get good on your slants with a short scale steel. Then when you transition to long scale, it's like running without training weights.

Enjoy!

[Rich Arnold]

I have a fat stomach so if I'm too close to my guitar my fat gets in the way when I'm playing the higher register. So I back away from the instrument and it solves the problem. I should loose some weight but that's another topic.

Scale length doesn't make any difference to me.

Happy playing.

[Michael Kiese]

Just curious. My new to me 40's EH125 has about a 23" scale length. I am 6' 4" and playing above the 12th fret or so is tough as my body gets in the way of my arm. Also the fret width is very small up high. I was wondering if a longer scale length would be easier to get to for a tall person and/or easier to play in tune up high?

Hi Pete,

Have you considered changing your playing position by approaching the steel at an angle?

When I place a lap steel on my lap, the headstock end is closer to my left knee. The bridge end of the steel is closer to trunk of my body on my right leg.

In this orientation, the neck of the steel is at an angle, and it more naturally aligns with the "windshield wiper" path of my left arm from my elbow to my hand.

When I have a steel on a stand and play standing up, I do the same thing. I just orient my body at an angle. Helps me a lot! Much more comfortable.

I've been playing 2 weeks and I'm addicted. Been thinking of a double 8 console, especially a 50's Fender. Love the way they look and sound. I am already seeing limitations of one tuning and only 6 strings.

Haha, sounds like you have been bitten by the bug!

Have fun with other tunings (great excuse to buy more steels, especially cheaper ones).

But since you are interested in Western Swing, DO NOT underestimate the power of the C6 neck. There is A LOT in there.

Between a C6 neck and an A6 neck, you can cover A LOT of Western Swing, Jazz, and Hawaiian music in all the most common keys.

You'll be up and gigging Western Swing in no time with a double neck of C6 and A6.

Beware of triple and quad necks...they're HEAVY!!! No bueno taking those to gigs. I have a Fender Quad Stringmaster. I just use it as my tuning laboratory/practice console at home. I have A6, C6, E13 (Noel Boggs/Jules Ah See), and Jerry Byrd's C Diatonic. E13 is cool. I barely play the C diatonic. But A6 and C6 all day. A nice thing about the A6 neck is that it's really quick and easy to change it to B11.

Enjoy!

[Pete Martin]

Thanks a lot for the body position suggestion Mike! My steel is on a stand, so I’ll try it out, plus I think I will start to do at least some practice standing up.

Pete

[Nathan Laudenbach]

Slants are easier on a short scale. That’s one of the biggest factors in scale length preference. Lots of players who enjoy playing slants (typically more Hawaiian stuff) use bar slants and Jerry Byrd for one talks about preferring a short scale guitar for this exact reason. I’m not sure why some replies on here said longer scale is better for slants but I only have short scale guitars so I’m a bit ignorant.

[Michael Kiese]

Thanks a lot for the body position suggestion Mike! My steel is on a stand, so I’ll try it out, plus I think I will start to do at least some practice standing up.

Pete

My pleasure Pete! It makes me feel good that I offered something of value to you.

Another thing that came to mind...since you mentioned that you're already finding 6 string limiting...8 string versions of C6 and A6 are indeed more helpful when playing Western Swing and Jazz.

I wouldn't be concerned about going beyond 8 strings for straight steel. Some people have 10 or 12 string necks...there are no rules in art. People are free to do as they like.

My 2¢: If you add any lower strings, you're getting into the lowest octave of the piano, and that's bass player territory. It's there for us, but really unnecessary and it's not cool to step on the toes of other musicians.

8 strings per neck and A6 and C6 is more than enough to do A LOT of work in Western Swing.

Enjoy and Have fun!

[Michael Kiese]

Slants are easier on a short scale. That’s one of the biggest factors in scale length preference. Lots of players who enjoy playing slants (typically more Hawaiian stuff) use bar slants and Jerry Byrd for one talks about preferring a short scale guitar for this exact reason. I’m not sure why some replies on here said longer scale is better for slants but I only have short scale guitars so I’m a bit ignorant.

Hi Nathan,

I highly encourage you to try playing a long scale neck like a Fender Stringmaster, which is around 24.5". That's the same scale length of an A25 Rickenbacher frypan. The Rickenbacher Bakelites are around 22.5" scale. Go back and forth from your short scale to a long scale and try slants. Give it an honest shot, like 5-10 minutes of playing.

I think you may be surprised to discover that the long scale makes it easier to get your slants in tune, especially with a bit of vibrato. There is more "real estate" on the strings on a long scale guitar. This extends the acceptable landing zone area of your slants.

That's what I discovered for myself, but maybe others would disagree, and that's fine.

You do have to slant MORE on a long scale, meaning slants require an ever so slightly more acute angle. So if that is physically challenging for a player, I can understand that. I found that as long as I have the correct slant angle, the intonation is more forgiving on a long scale.

For me, my main gigging steel for my Hawaiian band is my Rickenbacher ACE, which is short scale. I got used to playing my slants on short scale. When I go to a long scale like a Fender Stringmaster or an A25, it feels like I got my "training weights" off. The short scale requires me to be more precise. The long scale is more forgiving. Both are good!

Just my 2¢.

Enjoy!

[Tim Toberer]

Not an expert, but I think in the long run a longer scale instrument is more playable for the reasons mentioned before about playing higher on the neck. This is not great on a short scale. That said I recently spent a bit of time playing a shorter scale instrument, and my single note playing seemed instantly better in the main central part of the neck where most of the music will be. I feel with work I can get to this level on a longer scale, but takes more work. Both are good!

[Gary Meixner]

Pete,

I would encourage you to not worry too much about scale length. It gets discussed a lot but I don't think in the end it matters much. As Mike Neer observed, you will notice some differences between the two when playing at the extreme ends of the scale, but in the body of the neck, where you will spend a lot of your time its really all the same. Once you become more familiar with the instrument I think you will be amazed at how easily you adapt when switching between long and short scale guitars.

If down the road the music you want to play has you spending a lot of time in the extreme upper registers, I might say look for a longer scale guitar. Western Swing players tend to not use slants as much as the Hawaiian players but in either case you will want to learn to play slants anywhere on the neck. They just get a little harder to nail on the first three frets of a long scale guitar.

Not to confuse the issue, but string spacing has a lot to do with the ease of playing slants in tune. I dont like the typical Fender string spacing for this, and other reasons. My preference is for a wider string spread. My main guitar is a long scale Clinesmith. I had it made with a wider string spread. I also play a variety of 6 string steels with a 22.5" scale length and the wider string spread that is typical of the early Rickenbachers. I switch back and forth often during performances without much trouble.

Don't turn your back on your current 6 string Gibson, there is a lifetime of music to be played on that instrument. You could argue that it has limitations but I doubt you will ever run out of new things to play on that thing.

Best,

Gary Meixner