Over or Under The Tuning Posts

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 27 Oct 2023 4:26 am

I have no question which is standard (over).

I have a client's guitar that is all strung under. It is my feeling that unless a guitar has a design flaw that requires going under to create adequate down-pressure on the roller nuts, going under creates too much down force.
In my mind this means excess friction resulting in over-all degraded performance. Tone consequences too, maybe?

If you are used to turning your tuners one way, changing everything would not be welcome. I get it.
But I'm thinking of strongly suggesting to him that he change. Specifically to make the guitar play better (not just 'because that's the way everyone does it').
It plays acceptably but I think it could play better (less ''hysteresis', for one thing, on his setup that lowers a lot of strings a whole step.)

But my question is --- does over vs under matter as I feel that it does or am I creating an unnecessary aggravation for the client?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 27 Oct 2023 4:41 am

Bottom line is that I "know" that this is wrong but I can't say that I "know" it with the certainly of something that I actually know. The difference between knowing and feeling/assuming.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 27 Oct 2023 4:42 am

Step 1 - ask him if there's a reason and see what he says

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 27 Oct 2023 6:00 am

FWIW..

Paul Beard told me that many/most tuners are designed to be strung over due to gear design.

fwiw

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Oct 2023 6:57 am

Increasing the string angles and adding tension is usually not a good idea. That said, people do strange things, sometimes for unknown reasons. Kinda like the guitar players who never cut off strings, and just coil them or leave them poking six inches off the tuning keys.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 27 Oct 2023 7:07 am

...my point being that either he's strung it that way on purpose to cure some problem, or he's never given it any thought in which case he might welcome your advice.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 27 Oct 2023 7:23 am

So -- he has come & gone. Either the strings are the way he received the guitar from the previous owner or they are a random choice. But no, they are not for a reason and he now fully understands that he should change to the correct way when he restrings.
This makes me happy.

This post was just a reality check. I KNOW how I want the strings strung. I just was looking for someone to tell me that I was just being anal. But I was pretty sure that there is no situation that wants the extreme break angle that reverse winding creates at the headstock.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 27 Oct 2023 8:45 am

I completely agree with you Jon, especially concerning the outer strings. But I am not surprised. I have seen so many really good armpit-guitarists who cannot string their axes correctly – I would even say they are in the majority by quite a good margin. Too few wraps, too many wraps, stringing backwards, tying knots around the string post, not pre-stretching before they start to tune up, not bothering to trim the protruding string ends, etc, etc...

Ron Pruter · Post by **Ron Pruter** » 27 Oct 2023 11:10 am

The only steel that I think would benefit from this under post tuning would be the Stage One steels.
The excess bend on the low B would really add to it's not com-
ing back in tune on most guitars.
Howard- having rebuilt many tuners and examining them under magnification, I see no directional preference. But, I've heard that said also. RP

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 27 Oct 2023 11:58 am

My first guitar, an early 80's BMI, had excessive nut rattle on the 6th string. The most effective remedy was to wind that one string under. That little bit gave it the down-angle it needed. But I can't tell you how much I hated having just one tuner turn backwards.

I was glad that this guitar's owner did not have any stake in doing it this way and has no problem at all getting used to turning the tuners the opposite from how he's been doing it.

It's no small thing, that little muscle memory. I could never get it straight as I worked on this guitar in the cradle and tweaked the tuning --- the wrong way. Every. Single. Time.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 27 Oct 2023 12:24 pm

That's asking too much of the human brain

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 27 Oct 2023 1:17 pm

I always go with whatever will keep the string the most straight, including whether I wind it under or over, and whether the winds go towards the top or bottom of the post.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 27 Oct 2023 2:03 pm

The issue being discussed here is a two dimensional one. Now you have introduced a third dimension.

Absolutely, I try to keep that straight line going from changer to tuning post. Lateral misalignment is not your friend.

One client's guitar that I find especially difficult (and coincidentally is coming in next week for a tune-up and restring) is a Jackson Maverick. This was the 'before' picture of the last time I serviced it. I improved on this but I was still not very happy with the job I did (no photo). My general 'rules of thumb' just don't apply to these tuning posts.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 27 Oct 2023 3:54 pm

You're right, Jon. I can see where doing a good job on that one would be difficult. Put as politely as I can, I'd say I wish they'd given that design a little more thought before they executed it.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 27 Oct 2023 4:38 pm

I'll need to refresh my memory next week when I have this guitar back on the bench but my recollection is that if you accurately guess the amount of extra string necessary to walk the windings out to something close to a straight line, you find that the center piece rewards you by making contact with the string. The owner has never reported problems with string breakage so maybe the abrasion that I imagine from this is not an issue.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 27 Oct 2023 7:33 pm

I can see no reason to reverse the winding to bottom of the tuner shaft, Unless there is a problem of kind with the nut rollers.

On the key heads I like to wind the strings any way I have to, To have a straight pull on string over the nut roller. On some guitars side pressure on the nut roller can cause problems returning to open tuning. Shorter the key head seems the more problem it can be.

James Holland · Post by **James Holland** » 6 Nov 2023 9:20 am

Someone suggested it, but wanted to add, that there are left hand and right hand wind tuners in the world. the winding force should be in the intended direction, so the gears bear on the intended surfaces. when the wrong tuner is reverse wound, the surfaces in contact weren't cut or polished for sliding under force. Incorrect winding will shorten tuner life, and unstable tuning on guitars and banjos, so I'd strongly suggest the same for pedal steel guitars. In short, the RH and LH tuners are not just different for cosmetic reasons.

Paul Seager · Post by **Paul Seager** » 9 Nov 2023 10:04 am

This is a timely thread. I bought my first PSG more than 3 years ago and for reasons of time, I didn't really get started with it until a year back. I'm going to confess that all but one of the strings are those it came delivered with, direct from the builders workshop.

I changed the broken string and only after tuning up did I notice that the originals are wound under the posts whereas I wound the replacement over, as I have always done!

When restringing my Rickenbacker D8 recently, I decided to go under the post. Tonally it's made no difference but somehow it looks a lot neater!

I'm about to fully re-string the PSG and, after reading this thread, I'll definitely be going over!

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 9 Nov 2023 12:48 pm

Donny Hinson wrote:Put as politely as I can, I'd say I wish they'd given that design a little more thought before they executed it.

My, that is polite

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 10 Nov 2023 4:50 am

It would seem LOOK traditionally wrong to go from underneath the strings.
And of course, the tuners would turn the other way as expected.
I don't know if it would affect the "locking" mechanism of some modern tuning "machines" though.

But the question is valid and here is why:
Downward pressure on the nut.
Maurice Anderson conveyed to me once that they tried different height differences (necks, strings over the cabinet) and that they found audible deterioration of tone when the string's angle from the key head tuner posts was too shallow towards the roller-nut.
Let's not forget that they started producing guitars with longer and longer key heads due to the standardization of 10 string necks over 6, 7 and 8th strings and the introduction of the S-12 "Universal" with an even longer key head.
Maurice explained with that the high necks and high string clearance original MSA's typically boasted.
I would tend to agree, one more reason I like SOME keyless guitars and favor those which pull the string down instead of horizontally back.

So, coming from underneath the tuner post, would add an easy 1/4" more of height difference... which MAY make a difference, especially from the farthest away middle strings, adding more pressure on the nut.

... J-D.