Re-tuning for piano

[Dave Meis]

I recently did a gig with a piano player sitting in on a gig that doesn't usually have piano. When I heard some recording of it, the steel sounded 'out'. I remember reading about retuning to ET when playing with a piano, but can't locate the article.
Any of you guys have any experience with this?
TIA

[Robert Murphy]

Not pedal steel but lap steel C6. ET made a difference.

[Donny Hinson]

Playing live, I have no problem playing my (mostly) JI tuning with keyboards. But I also know that if I do a "pieced" session and there's supposed to be both keyboards and steel, it's best to have the keyboard tracks laid down first. Then, I can come in behind and do my tracks, because while I can "adjust" to the keyboard's temperament on the fly, they can't blend with my tracks if mine are laid down first.

Finding and playing in that "tonal center" takes a really good ear, so you have to listen closely to the "blend", instead of listening mostly to what you're doing.

[Ian Rae]

Well said. A steel tuned in unsweetened ET sounds like a bag of nails, and trying to match a keyboard note for note may be science, but it isn't art.
The PSG tuned to something close to JI will sound good in its own right, and the worst that can happen is that the piano sounds wrong.

[Andrew Frost]

How you tune is only the starting point.

You have to keep your ear open and intonate appropriately regardless of how you tune.

I play with piano players a lot and I tune the same way I always tune which is about half way between JI and ET. If I changed the way I tune it would be ridiculous, as it would throw off my feel for the relationships between strings and my connection to the instrument would be completely out of whack.

[Steve Sycamore]

Most pianos are stretch tuned to account for different pitch responses as the strings become smaller. So even ET will not put you in perfect sync. It's possible that a sample player piano could be tuned to ET, but such an instrument probably doesn't sound at all good - too synthetic.

If possible, different stereo pans or speaker directions can help make the pitch differences less obvious or obnoxious. But probably experience playing together is the best remedy along with acknowledging that you are going to be either sharp or flat at different times. That is only natural (no pun intended) as acoustic instruments get added to the mix. In an orchestra or choir it is those subtle differences in pitch and the different levels of a performer's ability to get the right blend of JI and ET at any particular time that give fantastic richness to the sound.

When I write for strings or horns, especially, I use different tuning systems for each part when rendering them electronically. Bends containing ET, Young and Werkmeister, for example, just enliven the result and put the rendering very much in the realistic zone.

[Ian Rae]

In an orchestra, the strings have a built-in chorus effect; the brass play in JI because it's the only kind of "in tune" that they can achieve; the woodwind are caught in the middle, playing instruments that are constructed in ET, but humouring them for the best result. This heterogeny gives the richness that Steve acknowledges. When you sit in a trombone section (as I still do from time to time) you are not aware of it, of course. You just do your job of eliminating beats with the guys next to you if the notes are long enough to matter.
It's the same playing steel with guitar and piano. All you can do is keep your own house in order.

[Dennis Detweiler]

I've never had an intonation problem with steel, electric or acoustic piano in the studio. My older model MSA's have 2 cents cabinet drop. I tune my E's to 442 which puts my A's (A/B pedals down) at 440. I temper tune and have no problems. When a song ends a sustaining chord, I'm blended with the keyboard. My F lever is a little trickier and have to play sharp to the fret in a major chord, but not a big deal.

[Dave Meis]

Thanks guys. I appreciate your input. It appears that few/none of you re-tune, and that was my question. I listened again to the recording and realized there were 'other' things going on as well..including the vocals. This was live, on a phone, and the band was louder than usual, combined with the possibility that it wasn't my best night!
I've never had a problem in the studio, and I've been playing "fretless" since the mid 70s and I'm usually able to play in tune, which is why this stood out to me. A glitch in the Matrix, perhaps?
Anyway, thanks!

[Larry Allen]

I play with a piano guy with my steel tuned to EQU.. all in tune..

[Jerry Overstreet]

I don't offer advice, I can only tell you what I do.

As mentioned above, I tune the strings with A&B pedals down so that the E string is straight up on the meter.

Then I tune the pedals and all other strings and changes to that.

Anytime I play with a group of musicians, I always get them to play an A triad...first position on the guitar, after he has tuned up, and middle if it's a piano. I check my pedals down open fret A chord against that.

[Generally that involves tuning the G# to A raises straight up to A 440.]

I use the open fret pedaled A chord a lot so it has to be in tune since one can't cheat with the bar there.

After that, I put the tuner away and tune by ear to the rest of the band.

For the first few years, I used the old Newman tuning chart and always sounded flat and out of tune in the pedals down postions.

I finally realized I had to change to get in tune with the rest of the world.

Actually, the best method I have found is the Al Petty method of tuning in beats, which is a relaxed version of the Piano Tuning and Allied Arts method from years ago. Only problem with that, is that you need to hear and actually count in the beats...hard to do on a noisy stage with the ever noodling guitar player or bird house building drummer. If I get there early enough to avoid everybody else, that's what I use. I have almost memorized the method to the point I can see it on a tuner if I have to.

Either of these methods or sometimes a combination and comparing of the two works so that if my guitar is stable and the guitar player doesn't start tuning up in pitch, I'm good for the event with all the other instruments including keyboard.

[Ian Rae]

Anytime I play with a group of musicians, I always get them to play an A triad...first position on the guitar, after he has tuned up, and middle if it's a piano. I check my pedals down open fret A chord against that.

That's a really good tip, for which many thanks. I can see now that open E doesn't tell the full story.

[Dave Meis]

Thanks Jerry! Sounding slightly flat was what I noticed in the recording..

[Steve Sycamore]

Anytime I play with a group of musicians, I always get them to play an A triad...first position on the guitar, after he has tuned up, and middle if it's a piano. I check my pedals down open fret A chord against that.

That's exactly how I tune too. There, the A should be 440 Hz, right? Unless the piano is offset...

I use JI almost straight up, which is very, very close to Jeff Newman's chart after normalizing the A to 440. You get both sharp and flat notes compared to ET. So each particular note or chord might require a slight departure from being exactly "on the fret" if you are trying to synchronize with other players.

Another interesting thing, for me anyways, is that pitch matters far more in melody than it does for harmony. Chords can tolerate a bit of pitch variation, especially if the mix is done well. But when playing melodic lines that stand out, going flat reduces the energy and joyousness of a line while going sharp boosts energy, enthusiasm and liveliness. Maybe that description is an over simplification of the effect, but the effect of going sharp or flat is real and evident.

[J D Sauser]

Guitars tune ET and are NEVER in tune as when they press the strings at different spots of the neck, the strings detune differently. The same hold true for bowed strings... they tune in by ear.
Trumpets etc also have a certain range they can "tune" in every note. I've seen BigBand spin out chords in perfect tune like silk. Every one playing one of the notes the chords are made of.
The piano, and especially electronic pianos are fairly fixed pitch. There are different tuning approaches and each tuning specialist has it's own interpretation to the point, some musicians know some people they like to have their piano tuned by. Acoustic pianos have several strings per key and they are tuned slightly "fanned" for a wider and more swallowable ET sound in all 12 keys.

I find it hard to play only rhythm on an acoustic guitar to a piano. And the guitar IS tuned ET... but... well, as mentioned above...

I have come to grips with the fact that tuning a non-pedal steel which is played "Jerry Byrd"-style in mostly single notes and 2-note harmonies using slants, which all have be "tuned" by ear to the surrounding sounds, can be tuned JI, ET or what ever... the "tuning" happens in the playing.

E9th which is also mainly played in 2 note harmonies up and down the neck and single note runs, all which again can and must be intonated as we play can be tuned JI as long the player has the "ears" to "home" his single notes and also harmonies to a "golden medium" to what others play.

Pedaled C6th or any other "Jazz"-Chord tuning, is different because in Jazz, R&B and Soul (let's not even mention NEO-Soul), we play "BIG" chords with a STRAIGHT bar. ET or as close as possible to it, has come to seem to me to be the only way to get 4, 5, or more different, sometimes inherently dissonant among each other notes in "tune" and moving the whole thing in "place" with the rest of the world is done by a nudge of the bar one or the other way.
Harsh 2-note harmonies (flat sounding minor 3rds and grinding sharp sounding Major 3rds) then be "sweetened" with a slight slant of the bar on "on the fly" and homed into an acceptable compromise just like JI players of non-pedal and E9th guitars would.

The sweetness of JI is habit forming, no question about it, especially if we play alone... which is what most of us are condemned to for our musical taste and the still limited acceptance for our instrument. I had a real difficult 3 months when I went to playing standard guitar because all I heard was harsh grinds I couldn't stand.
Single reed or tines electric pianos (like Wurlitzer or Rhodes) can sound very harsh too because they lack the "spread" tuning of several strings for the same not an acoustic piano has. Only the warmth of a at least ever so slightly driven tube amp can "sweeten" that rub out somewhat... but they do play in all 12 keys the same way. I've always had Wurlys and you get used to that too and this is why people not used to PSG and JI tunings often perceive the 11 cents flattened M3rds pretty much right away as "out of tune" or "flat".

I once had a traditional Country lead guitarist visiting me and back then I played an E9th universal tuned JI. First thing he said was "why are all PSG's out of tune? So, I tried to explain. Turned out he had perfect pitch. I tested it playing open strings with and without pedals. But without reference we would say "G#, but it FLAT", "E, but it's sharp"... it was unbelievable, at least for me.

Interestingly he came back a few times, because although he was an much more accomplished musician than I, he was intrigued by the "numbers"-approach (Roman Numerals for progressions, and numbers in general for degrees) instead of chord and tone name. He did NOT comprehend the system and after a few "sessions" we both got aggravated with the whole thought exchange because he would question it at every step and I wondered, why would somebody who can listen to a tune and spell out the notes and also knows where the notes are all over the neck, need "numbers"? But that's another story.

One thing I learned from it was, that having perfect pitch... THAT perfect pitch must be Hell! Everything is out of tune!

... J-D.

[Ian Rae]

Useful as perfect pitch must be in some situations, I give thanks daily that I don't have it.

I play a B6/E9 universal with the E9 changes tuned by ear in JI and the B6 ones in ET with a meter. This has never aroused comment, so I stick with it.

[Steve Sycamore]

Hmmm, I'm not sure "Perfect Pitch" has officially been defined. If it means immediately identifying any and all ET pitches at a 440 Hz standard then I agree that it is not particularly helpful to building a deeper musical understanding and "feel" for how things ultimately should sound.

For comparison, the Indian Carnatic system allows any base pitch to be set and all musicians reset note intervals according to that base pitch. The intervals used are not necessarily based on ET relationships so that gives rise to a more complex and one might say interesting or compelling result.

[Ian Rae]

I agree that perfect pitch is undefined, and that what most people understand by it is the ability to recognise everyday notes in western culture. It would rule you out of playing in one of those orchestras that uses "baroque pitch" for early music - approximately but not exactly a semitone below 440!

[J D Sauser]

Believe it or not, I sometimes re-read my posts, some times days after I posted them, some times years or even Decades later and quite often scratch my head, wondering WHO wrote it.

I guess that what "who ever" it was wrote above lengthy ramble under the pseudonym "J-D. Sauser" was trying to say, is that, no matter what tuning method we use, we'll have to adjust every note as play to match what those which have fixed pitch instrument (like keyboards are) with our "magic"-bar.

... J-D.

[Dale Rottacker]

Believe it or not, I sometimes re-read my posts, some times days after I posted them, some times years or even Decades later and quite often scratch my head, wondering WHO wrote it.

I guess that what "who ever" it was wrote above lengthy ramble under the pseudonym "J-D. Sauser" was trying to say, is that, no matter what tuning method we use, we'll have to adjust every note as play to match what those which have fixed pitch instrument (like keyboards are) with our "magic"-bar.

... J-D.

Now THAT was concise and well said

I do wonder though, if "adjusting every note as we play to match" is less a conscious mechanical thing and more, you're just playing like you do all the time even when by yourself, trying to make music "sound right". That doesn't really change because a piano is a few cents off from us, we're still trying to sound right. My 2 cents, or however many cents I'm off.

[Andrew Frost]

trying to make music "sound right". That doesn't really change because a piano is a few cents off from us

I'd say that pretty realistically sums it up

[J D Sauser]

Now THAT was concise and well said

I do wonder though, if "adjusting every note as we play to match" is less a conscious mechanical thing and more, you're just playing like you do all the time even when by yourself, trying to make music "sound right". That doesn't really change because a piano is a few cents off from us, we're still trying to sound right. My 2 cents, or however many cents I'm off.

I think it’s both, concious and subconscious.
There is a “knowing” aspect which should lead to a technical reaction… example:
I have learned to ID my Major and minor third pairs. First on the un-altered “open” tuning and excercised to slightly bar-slant correct them, sharpening the minor 3rd, respectively flattening the Major 3rd pairs. Actually this excetcise has helped me being aware where they are and and thus associate that knowleadge to their difference in sound better, which leads into subconcsious recognition of them im tuning changes (pedals/levers).
We need to develop an “ear” from “homing” into surrounding sounds. To me that’s like flying of driving on a closely packed 4 lane highway: you dint step out with a measuring tape! You don’t evem see the exact dimensions of your vehicle.. you develop a feel for it, unless you’re my daughter Likewise some fit in, in tune and some never will no mather which tuning system they pla on.

… JD.

[Ian Rae]

We should distinguish between how a guitar is tuned and how it is played, i.e. between tuning and intonation. The PSG should sound good in its own right and not compromise to sound more like something else. That is the basis of the hybrid tuning I use. But it doesn't help me to play in tune. That comes from having previously played an instrument that requires continuous feedback from the ear to the hand (in my case the trombone, but it could besomething else like the fiddle). Someone who has only played fixed-pitch instruments and not developed that link may struggle with PSG.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Yes, in the ear and hands of the beholder.