Would this knee lever change be unrealistic?

[Chris Scruggs]

I’m chasing getting some lower voicings on E9 and one of them I’d like to have is the higher seven strings of Bud Isaacs’ original E9 tuning, voiced on strings 4-10:

E
B
G#
F#
D
B
G#

There’s a few other other “not typical E9” voicings I’m looking to incorporate as well, but I want to keep the basics (ABCDEF changes) so economy is key and for this reason, I’m trying to hitch the second string lower onto this change.

On a modern guitar, would it be crazy to attempt to put this on a knee lever and also have my second string lower (just a half step to D) on this same change? Would a change with this much movement be better situated on a foot pedal? If the low three string lowers went on a pedal, I’m back to square one because for obvious reasons, I’d want to lower my second string lower on a knee.

If this were an option, would it be possible to time the change so that 2 drops to D right away, or would it have to wait until the low three strings “do their thing?”

The change would be on LKR and would look like this:

1
2>D
3
4
5
6
7
8>>D
9>>>B
10>>>G#

Does this look like a bad idea?

[Bobby Boggs]

Will make for a stiff knee lever. But yes, you can time the 2nd string to lower to D before the other strings start lowering. A pedal might be better suited for these changes. Or maybe put the low side changes on a knee opposite of your current 2nd string lower??

[Jon Light]

...But yes, you can time the 2nd string to lower to D before the other strings start lowering......

I'd love to hear you elaborate on this. For a long time I've tried to dream up way to do this and I've concluded that it can't be done (in any way that doesn't involve a spring that adds a lot of resistance to the lever) and that the shorter throw of a multi-string pull has to either be leveraged to have its movement spread out through the entirety of the lever's travel or activated at the end of the throw.
But there's always been a nagging feeling that I'm missing something -- some engineering concept that is just beyond my imagination.

[Bobby Boggs]

Jon, I've never added this change, nor do I have a reason to. If you say it won't work? I respect your opinion. However, I feel confident I could add this change, or I would have never posted my opinion.
If he plans to not lower string 2 more than a half step with any pedal or knee lever on his guitar. In my mind. It should work without being a big deal. It takes very little changer throw to lower the 2nd string to D. Now, if he plans to add the above-mentioned change and has any plans of lowering the 2nd string a full step with any pedal or knee lever not mentioned. That's where it's gets hairy in my mind. Still feel it can be done. But I've been wrong before.

Chris, if you're not comfortable doing this yourself? I suggest you contact Buck Reid or any of Nashville's better steel techs.

[Ian Worley]

I don't know how firm you are on keeping the standard E9 open tuning Chris, but one option to get what you're after would be to omit the D on 9 and simply tune 9 and 10 B and G# respectively like a uni. That way you would only need to drop string 8 to D and you're there. Dropping 8 to D will still provide about 90% of what you can do with the normal E9 string 9 D; there aren't that many moves and voicings that require both the D and something on the normal string 8 at the same time. It works well to combine the string 8 E>>D with the standard string 2 lower, without the additional C# on 2 (or 9).

There's always a trade-off, but if you can live with that compromise removing the D on 8 opens up other stuff too without really giving up very much on the standard E9 voicings and changes, all the standard uni B6 voicing opportunities on 4-10 with just the normal E9 E lowers, A6 across 3-10 with A&B pedals. Might be worth a try.

I don't think lowering the bottom three strings two or three half steps each after string two has been lowered to D is very practical. I'm sure it's possible, but it would definitely require some creative finagling with springs and stops to tune and hold string 2 at D while strings 8-9-10 continued to lower. It would be a very long pull. Lowering just strings 2 and 8 to D is a very easy pull to set up and time.

[Tony Glassman]

I had a 4-change pedal change placed on a two Zum S-12 universals by Bruce Zumsteg which worked. The changes were placed on a pedal but had a toggle/style clamp on the back apron that locked it in. I’d press the pedal and flick the clamp lever to either keep it engaged or disengaged.

The goal was to have an E9/B6 uni which allowed me to keep the 9th string D for E9 playing. The system was easy to use, but the toggle clamp Bruce used was a tad bit weak. I ultimately decided to revert to a D-10 for other reasons. Had I kept the guitars, I’d have replaced the toggle with slightly larger & stronger one.

This is the copedant:

[Justin Shaw]

I needed to use pedals rather than levers when I had 4 pull changes on my universal, because levers were always too stiff.

Also, you are talking about pulling the 3 heaviest strings 2 or 3 half steps lower, which brings its own problems. The pedal might be stiff no matter what, and if you do it those 3 strings are going to be very flubby. Maybe you up the gauge of string for those? In my own case if I had 4 pulls total, none of them were 3 half steps. Again to prevent it getting too stiff.

I think Tony's solution would work but I personally don't like locking solutions. I would say you have good reason to move to a universal or extended E9 11 or 12 string, tuned:

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
D
E
B
G#
(E)

or something. My universal has a variant of this tuning and I'm very happy with it, because of all the low notes available for chord voicings. I have found that the lower you go, and the heavier the string, the better it is to leave those strings without changes as much as possible: for tone, playability, etc. You'll note that many extended pedal steel copedents have very few if any changes on the low strings >070w, and the ones that are there are typically half steps one way or another, or the only pull on the change, and are often on pedals, not knees.

I think you'll have a hard time making the proposed pedal work to the point where you'd be happy with it. I could very well be wrong.