Who has the most stable mechanical design right now?

[Duncan Wood]

I'm thinking about buying a new PSG. I have a Fessenden S12, which is beautiful, but I find it difficult to maintain and the cabinet drop is infuriating. My guitar, and probably most others, have the two ends of the string (the head and changer) attached via wood screws to the body, with no positive connection to metal between them. This mechanical connection could be achieved via machine screws in the head and changer fixing them to the aluminum neck, but instead the neck just floats in the middle. The wood deforms until the tension from pulls is equalized, whereas extruded aluminum would be far more rigid and keep the tension in the strings.

Is there a manufacturer that implements this idea, or do they all rely on the cabinet to bear the string tension?

Also generally interested in your opinions on the different designs available today! Thanks!

[Marco Schouten]

That's a bad idea. Aluminium expands and shrinks too much with different temperatures. You would be retuning all the timeif you would attach the changer and keyhead to an aluminium neck.
How much is the cabinet drop on your guitar?

[Ian Rae]

Steel and aluminium have comparable coefficients of expansion, and Al-framed guitars are very stable.
And then I have a traditional maple-bodied one which is very stable too. As far as I can tell, the neck doesn't "float" but appears to be helping to keep the ends apart.

[Duncan Wood]

That's a bad idea. Aluminium expands and shrinks too much with different temperatures. You would be retuning all the timeif you would attach the changer and keyhead to an aluminium neck.
How much is the cabinet drop on your guitar?

Thanks for the thought Marco! I agree aluminum will move more with temperature than wood. Looks like a factor of 23 X 10^(-6) per degree C. So even if there was a 10 degree C change, the aluminum in 2 feet of neck would shift about 0.005 inches, corresponding to about 4 cents on the open strings, not including the strings also changing somewhat in the same direction. I'm not so worried about retuning the strings in that case, and that doesn't seem to be a concern for tuning the rods.

Whether or not I've done that math right - let's say I only play recording sessions in air conditioned rooms. Is there any other reason to not build guitars this way?

My cabinet drop is 6 cents off string 4 with A+B down. It forces me to compromise on which pedal combinations get tuned properly, and I just think it's a problem that shouldn't exist.

[Duncan Wood]

Steel and aluminium have comparable coefficients of expansion, and Al-framed guitars are very stable.
And then I have a traditional maple-bodied one which is very stable too. As far as I can tell, the neck doesn't "float" but appears to be helping to keep the ends apart.

Thanks Ian - which guitars are you referencing here? I'm taking notes!

[Ian Rae]

Duncan - my aluminium one is an Excel keyless - it's my gig guitar and stays in tune in all weathers!

The maple one is a Williams and although it stays indoors it doesn't enjoy the luxury of aircon, so it still has to withstand the seasons.

As for cabinet drop, much has been written but I'd warn against a search if there are other things you intend to do with your life. Suffice to say that if you have a bunch of tensioned strings and you alter one of them, then the others will go the opposite way by an amount which may or may not be detectable. If it's detectable you learn to compensate. I don't have to.

[I also have a GFI which is on an Al frame although I haven't used it enough to judge it. But plenty of folks swear by them]

[Steve Mueller]

It's well known that aluminum neck guitars generally have more cabinet drop/raise than maple necks. I'm sure it varies by make and individual guitar also. I've had 4 maple neck Williams steels. None have had greater than 2 cents E9 cabinet drop with AB pedals down.

[Ian Rae]

Steve is dead right about Williams, but I'm not sure that it's "well known" that aluminium is inferior. By that reckoning both my other guitars should exhibit
significant cabinet drop, but they don't

[Dennis Detweiler]

Both of my guitars 1975 and 1976 have 2 cents drop with A and B down. Both are maple body and neck. The worst drop I sat down to play was a S-12 Emmons push pull. Very audible. The guitar setting next to it was a S-12 ShoBud and minimal drop audible. Then I purchased a new 1976 MSA.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Duncan,
My uninformed assumption based opinion about this issue is that you are looking in the wrong place for a solution to your problem. The arguably most in tune steel player who ever lived, Paul Franklin, plays a steel with significant cabinet drop. The same with all the greats. If you truly learn the neck and get your ears and hands together cabinet drop can act in your favor depending on your approach to tuning.

The guitar with the least cabinet drop I have owned or played is an Emmons LeGrande III. The most mechanically stable guitar I have ever owned or played is a Push Pull Emmons. The most sonically clear steel I have ever owned or played while being rich and full sounding is a Franklin.

None of these guitars have the qualities you desire. Music is essentially imperfect and filled with mathmatical contradictions on every level.

My suggestion would be to try playing other steels besides your Fessy and see if you get along better using only your hands and ears.
Leave the math behind until you get past this interruption. It will be very useful at some point. But for now it is a crippling distraction.

[Donny Hinson]

...The wood deforms until the tension from pulls is equalized, whereas extruded aluminum would be far more rigid and keep the tension in the strings.

Is there a manufacturer that implements this idea, or do they all rely on the cabinet to bear the string tension?

I don't know that your problem is in the guitar or its design. Could be a lotta things. Is this an audible drop when you're playing, or just something you're seeing on a tuner? 'Lotta things make for drop - design, setup, assembly, the player, etc.. I think the problem is overblown, and too involved to affirm it's brand-related.

Think about straight guitars; much less wood, and not much aluminum there, is it? Do straight guitars have drop and drift? Absolutely! As much (or more) than any pedal steel. I've noticed their players tend to look at a tuner a lot less, though.

[Duncan Wood]

Sincerely, again, thanks for y'alls input! Worth noting that the cabinet drop is just the most easily quantified complaint I have...

Duncan,
My uninformed assumption based opinion about this issue is that you are looking in the wrong place for a solution to your problem. The arguably most in tune steel player who ever lived, Paul Franklin, plays a steel with significant cabinet drop. The same with all the greats. If you truly learn the neck and get your ears and hands together cabinet drop can act in your favor depending on your approach to tuning.

The guitar with the least cabinet drop I have owned or played is an Emmons LeGrande III. The most mechanically stable guitar I have ever owned or played is a Push Pull Emmons. The most sonically clear steel I have ever owned or played while being rich and full sounding is a Franklin.

None of these guitars have the qualities you desire. Music is essentially imperfect and filled with mathmatical contradictions on every level.

My suggestion would be to try playing other steels besides your Fessy and see if you get along better using only your hands and ears.
Leave the math behind until you get past this interruption. It will be very useful at some point. But for now it is a crippling distraction.

Bob, I know that your opinion is well-informed! Thanks for all those reference points. I agree that if you're playing with your ears, and tune voicings to compensate, you can play around the issue. And I have learned to play around it without thinking too hard - after all, musicians do live inside all kinds of mathematical contradictions and try to make art of out it. But as I gear up to spend a few paychecks on a guitar, I can't help but feel I should be able to avoid compromising between different voicings when tuning pulls. I'll certainly have to try some other guitars and feel for myself. The math is just there to quantify what I'm hearing - I'll be absolutely thrilled to keep my tuner in my pocket once I can't hear any funny business!

I don't know that your problem is in the guitar or its design. Could be a lotta things. Is this an audible drop when you're playing, or just something you're seeing on a tuner? 'Lotta things make for drop - design, setup, assembly, the player, etc.. I think the problem is overblown, and too involved to affirm it's brand-related.

Think about straight guitars; much less wood, and not much aluminum there, is it? Do straight guitars have drop and drift? Absolutely! As much (or more) than any pedal steel. I've noticed their players tend to look at a tuner a lot less, though.

Donny, if pedal steels were as unstable as my Bigsby tele, I would have abandoned the instrument very quickly
I agree that some of my issues could be setup related. I'm no expert. But I do get the same drop if I just tune the notes up with the tuning pegs.

It's well known that aluminum neck guitars generally have more cabinet drop/raise than maple necks. I'm sure it varies by make and individual guitar also. I've had 4 maple neck Williams steels. None have had greater than 2 cents E9 cabinet drop with AB pedals down.

Steve, by "aluminum neck" do you mean something attached to the cabinet independent of the head and changer, or does that include the mechanical linking I described? I would like to try a Williams headless soon!

[Rich Peterson]

Has anyone used imbedded graphite rods to stiffen the wood?

[mtulbert]

I have seen Paul's guitar up close and there appears to be several compensators on his guitar to help deal with tuning issues. I have an Excel S10 ExStar with virually no cabinet drop at all. Doesn't help when you hit a clunker!!!

[Greg Cutshaw]

Cabinet drop hurts some pedal combinations and helps others. In any case not all pedals can be tuned to sound good at all inversions and in combination with other pedals and strings. So you have to work around all that stuff anyways!

[Donny Hinson]

Duncan, a new or different guitar may help your problem slightly, or not at all. Bear in mind that a new guitar is no substitute for "seat time". You have the basic mechanics of playing down, but so much more will be added with more time on the instrument - dedicated experience and practice will improve your ear, and also help your music "flow".
(Listening to your playing, I don't feel your problem is in your guitar.)

Keep at it! There are no short-cuts to any place worth going to.

[Steve Mueller]

Duncan,
By "aluminum neck," I mean just that, not referring to the guts of the guitar. I should also mention that I tune JI, use temperment comps on 1 and 7 attached to A pedal, and have pitch return comps on all strings with a raise and lower, similar to PF. At one time I tuned more or less ET and I can see that a significant cabinet drop on strings 1 and 7 would help the F# problem. However, my feeling is that for me, the less cabinet drop/raise the better, and the easier it becomes to sound in tune with the most string combinations. I also use a wound 6th to minimize cabinet drop and maximize tuning stability. My '73 Sho-Bud Professional came that way from the factory and I stuck with it. If the technology is there to build a pedal steel with minimal tuning disruption, why not take advantage of it? Spend less time tuning and more learning and playing.

[Dennis Detweiler]

My theory is that 6 cents drop is a little too much. You can always cheat with the bar placement. The critical problem is trying to sound in tune in open E or A, especially if you are working with a keyboard player. To sound in tune to A 440, you'd have to tune your open E's 6 cents sharp to get A440 pedals down open. Then you'll sound out of tune in open E. You can get by with 2 cents off. Compensators on all other critical pedal combinations of choice, yes.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Duncan,
I'm not so sure that cabinet rigidity is the problem with what we call cabinet drop. The 3 builders that I know personally that have successfully dealt with the issue are Emmons with the counterforce, Franklin with an experimental extra string under the steel and Zum with a device similar to the counterforce. They did not fix issue of cabinet drop with rigidity.

[John Larson]

The cabinet drop issue is similar to the issue of doing double stop bends on a guitar with a floating Floyd Rose type bridge. Bend one string while playing another and the non bent string is going to go flat several cents in pitch. This is due to the tension on one string increasing when it is bent. This is a more pronounced issue on a standard electric guitar as the balance on a floating locking style bridge is a very precise balance between the springs in the back and strings in the front. It makes tricks like "flutters" possible but it's a very delicate balance.

Duncan,
I'm not so sure that cabinet rigidity is the problem with what we call cabinet drop. The 3 builders that I know personally that have successfully dealt with the issue are Emmons with the counterforce, Franklin with an experimental extra string under the steel and Zum with a device similar to the counterforce. They did not fix issue of cabinet drop with rigidity.

How man pounds of tension is the average E9 string set putting on the body?
That's the crux of the issue from a physics standpoint. When a pedal is deperessed or tightened that tension balance is changing and its dropping other strings flat.

An all pull mechanism is going to add tension as each additional change is applied. As the springs that that effect the changer are adding tension when depressed.
This gets to the other balancing issue with cabinet drop. Make the body too rigid and you lose your sustain and free vibration. It deadens things.

Did Emmons fix this issue by using the Push-Pull mechanism?

It sounds like Franklin did something similar to the physics behind how the Evertune system on electric guitars.




The evertune device pairs each string with a spring in the bridge unit to keep the string under the set tension, therefore keeping it in tune. They set this up with "zones" so you can still bend. It's very popular amongst the metal crowd for the ability to keep rhythm parts tightly in tune no matter how hard the player hits the strings.

I have seen Paul's guitar up close and there appears to be several compensators on his guitar to help deal with tuning issues. I have an Excel S10 ExStar with virually no cabinet drop at all. Doesn't help when you hit a clunker!!!

The Excel is keyless I take it so the body is shorter. Length is going to add to any flexion causing cabinet drop. That's one way to minimize cabinet drop.

[Michael Sawyer]

https://youtu.be/EQkIJ6dgS5k?si=6GJC2y_LpKruE13a

I know i am straying away from the "cabinet drop"
thing,but its valuable info to me.

[John Larson]

https://youtu.be/EQkIJ6dgS5k?si=6GJC2y_LpKruE13a

I know i am straying away from the "cabinet drop"
thing,but its valuable info to me.

Paul touched on something that I think is at the core of this issue. Using the most valuable tool as musicians, your ears.

We now have very accurate stobe tuners so someone can be in tune to that but still out of tune to the band or other instruments.

It's started to diminish the music ear of players. I know I had a long uphill battle learning to play by ear because I grew up in the age of tabs and tuners.

It only got better when I started doing a lot of singing in church choir and there are no tuners there you have to rely on your ears to sing in tune with the other parts of the choir, which interestingly is around the time I decided to pick up steel.

At the end of the day I think cabinet drop is a two fold issue.
1. Players "hearing" it off when playing to perfectly tuned computer backing tracks. (Remember guitar fretboards aren't perfect tuned across the board so if you don't have a piano in the band you might not even hear the "drop").
2. Instrument actually creating a legitimate tension/flexion issue that cause significant drop.

How much of one vs the other is what makes it hard to correct.

[Duncan Wood]

Duncan,
I'm not so sure that cabinet rigidity is the problem with what we call cabinet drop. The 3 builders that I know personally that have successfully dealt with the issue are Emmons with the counterforce, Franklin with an experimental extra string under the steel and Zum with a device similar to the counterforce. They did not fix issue of cabinet drop with rigidity.

I'm curious to see some of these systems - Steve kindly agreed to let me investigate his Williams when I'm back in the Cincy area for the holidays. I don't doubt that there are other ways to solve these issues, but my sense from the responses here is that the simplest (sounding) solution has not been attempted. I'm not sure it's the rigidity of the cabinet either - it could be there's some give in the screws' connection to the wood. With all the engineering types in this community I'm surprised no one's written an authoritative review paper...

While I have your attention, do you have any opinions on strings returning to pitch reliably? Is this essentially solved with headless guitars? Also, about maintainability, availability of parts, ease of repairs and modifications like tuning adjustments? My Fessy requires you to take just about every piece of hardware off to get at anything, and I'm worried about repeatedly unscrewing the wood screws, compared to machine screws.

[John Larson]

While I have your attention, do you have any opinions on strings returning to pitch reliably? Is this essentially solved with headless guitars?

A couple variables are going to be involved there.
Are you using good quality strings that aren't stretching with age?
Are the changer fingers perfectly returning to the resting position?
Is the nut causing binding? Most PSG I've seen tend to have a straight string pull across the nut (aka they don't to the fatal flaw that Gibson guitars have where the D and G strings bind on the nut from the break angle).
A lot of headless guitars eliminate this final issue.

But a headless guitar that still has issues I'd look at the pedal and level mechanisms and the changer if stuff is binding (can happen with thermal expansion if you play a gig in the hot sun where the PSG is sitting out cooking).

[Bob Hoffnar]

Duncan,
The simplest solution has been studied and worked on by absolutely brilliant builders for decades. The question I would ask is why the best players and engineers of the instrument decided to do what they did. I used to spend time with Paul Franklin Sr going over the details of what makes a guitar sound good down to the level of overtone partials. It is a musical instrument where every aspect of the construction needs to work together to create a sound. If wood has anything to do with tone then screws going into the wood are significant and so on down to every detail. Flex in the changer mechanism is another significant part of the cabinet drop issue that rigidity has nothing to do with. As far as I can tell cabinet drop has very little to do with being able to play the intervals you want to play in tune. It exists but as long as its not too much it is not the main issue. I would focus more on application. Skip over the mechanical function part for a few years. Then look again at the "problem" and see if you feel the same about it.