BOOK? How to harmonize on guitar using 3rds and 6ths

[Ted Duncan]

Sometimes I deal with printed material a lot better than watching videos.


Does anybody know of a book, or a book that has a comprehensive section covering how to harmonize a melody or solo on guitar using double-stop 3rds and 6ths?

Something having good guitar neck diagrams, as well as notation and starting the root scale on as many strings as possible.

I'd like to see harmony below and above the root scale, in major, minor and at least mixolydian.

Thank you

[Fred Treece]

I doubt that you will find a book that limits the focus of harmonic theory to the major scale in 3rds and 6ths. You’ll probably have better luck finding that in a chapter of a more comprehensive book.

I found this Guitar World online magazine article that is very limited, more like an introduction for what you seek
https://www.guitarworld.com/lessons/har ... nor-thirds

I’m sure you can find something similar dealing with 6ths. Playing 6ths involves a different technique because the strings with that interval will not be adjacent, as they are with 3rds.

[Bill McCloskey]

You want this for guitar or pedal steel? Casey Saulpaugh has a book for E9 pedal steel on harmonized scales.

But the real question is: why not just map it out yourself?

[Fred Treece]

Curiosity got the best of me and Mister Google did not disappoint.
Here it is, guitar fretboard charts of harmonized major scale in 3rds and 6ths, all 6 strings.
https://acousticplayer.wordpress.com/fr ... -and-6ths/

[Ted Duncan]

You want this for guitar or pedal steel? Casey Saulpaugh has a book for E9 pedal steel on harmonized scales.

As mentioned, I am looking for this information on guitar, not pedal or lap steel.

But the real question is: why not just map it out yourself?

Actually, over the past 2 or so weeks, I have been making the scale and neck diagrams myself on the computer using MS Paint. Why am I looking for a book?:

1. There is a LOT of work in doing this. Yes ... the work has GOOD VALUE, in that if I write or type it ... that is another path into my memory. But it is a LOT of work.

2. I am doing all of this wearing a splint on my right hand and forearm and will be for some time. That means I am using all fingers and thumb on the left, but only the index finger on the right. It is REAL slow going.

3. The fear that I might be missing something, or making mistakes. I can check my work a little on guitar, but again there is that splint thing.

[Ted Duncan]

Curiosity got the best of me and Mister Google did not disappoint.
Here it is, guitar fretboard charts of harmonized major scale in 3rds and 6ths, all 6 strings.
https://acousticplayer.wordpress.com/fr ... -and-6ths/

Thanks Fred!

Over the past couple weeks I have been using google. I have saved a huge computer file of similar stuff. There are TONs of it on line, but curiously, nobody has EVERYTHING all in one place. I have seen the material you shared, but it is lacking all the information I want. Notation for example.

It would be helpful to get everything from one source, already organized and using just one format.

BTW ... the reason I want this is to help composing solos and fills for various songs and such ... and formalizing them using MuseScore. I can play most of this stuff on guitar, but I have never put anything on paper before and could use a little help.

[Fred Treece]

Doesn’t MuseScore have automatic notation when you enter tab? With those basic fretboard charts, you can tab harmonized scales out in every key and every mode, just copying, pasting, and editing the key.

I feel your pain. I searched a long time for the guitar theory/instruction book that had everything I wanted in it. It doesn’t exist! But I found most of what I wanted scattered around amongst books and videos full of other stuff I have never used, so that was the process - and a shelf full of largely unused books is a testament.

Nowadays it is possible to collect what you’re looking for online, publish it all for yourself. You never even have to print it. And you will never go anywhere or do anything else or eat or sleep!

So you are doing the process, just keep up the collecting and storing and labeling. Sorry about your hand; that does put a crimp in production. Get well soon.

[Ted Duncan]

Nowadays it is possible to collect what you’re looking for online, publish it all for yourself. You never even have to print it. And you will never go anywhere or do anything else or eat or sleep!

Although I don't publish anything, I have been doing that for years for all of my hobbies and interests. THIS, and not making snarky comments on forums and Youtube, is the exact thing the internet was created for. Not only do I organize and print out all the information I gather, but I own a large stapler, a 3 hole punch and a COIL BINDING MACHINE to keep everything bound and nice and tidy.

I have been putting together a book containing things I have found useful over the time I've been playing guitar as well as the new things I learn. Circle of Fifths, the CAGED system, scales, how to make chords and more.

You should see the reference books I've put together on military rifles of the last century, my M35a2 bobbed Deuce and much more.

Doesn’t MuseScore have automatic notation when you enter tab? With those basic fretboard charts, you can tab harmonized scales out in every key and every mode, just copying, pasting, and editing the key.

MuseScore is a very recent addition. While doing an online search for a program to do what MuseScore does, I was put off MuseScore by a couple VERY negative reviews which stated that its a scam. Well, it turns out that it ISN'T a scam and is a bit of freeware that works amazingly well.

Although I have entered a couple tunes note for note into it ... and TRANSCRIBED them to suit my voice, I am still learning the things this wonderful program can do.

I feel your pain. I searched a long time for the guitar theory/instruction book that had everything I wanted in it. It doesn’t exist! But I found most of what I wanted scattered around amongst books and videos full of other stuff I have never used, so that was the process - and a shelf full of largely unused books is a testament.

Harmonized double-stops on guitar and using them is a VERY large subject. There are a vast number of YouTube Vids alone on the topic. I am really surprised that Mel Bay or somebody hasn't put out a book on it.

Sorry about your hand; that does put a crimp in production. Get well soon.

Thank you! I have a BILLION things I want to do ... including learning to play that new lap steel I bought ... or building the one I have plans for. I just put the money together to fulfill a very old dream ... to BUILD my own car (NOT a kit ... or a hot rod mod) https://www.cx500forum.com/threads/velo ... be.117777/

And I can't do anything.

T.

[Bill McCloskey]

MS Paint might be more work than it is worth. I just use Google Sheets to map the fret board. Here is a harmonized scale I just did in google sheets. Takes less than a minute.

[John Larson]

I'll try to explain this the way I learned the theory from playing and studying leads from a lot of my favorite melodic metal bands.

A minor above third would be three frets up so if you have a lick that's on say the A string and starts on fret 7 you would play the minor third above harmony starting on the 10th fret on the d string (or the Now to get the harmony to sound right in the scale depending on what notes in the scale this lead is being played on you may have to alter one of the notes in the melody or lead idea by a half step so the notes are still within the scale.
This is esepcially true if your are playing around on the major second and perfect 4th thirds harmony on a minor scale.

A good example of this kind of idea is the intro to Iron Maiden's "Aces High." The last bar has a run of harmonized fifths but the main idea is a harmonized thirds idea.

6ths would just be same idea in reverse 4 frets down from the root (or 3 frets up one string higher, or 4 frets if it's the g to b strings).




The end of Metallica's "One" has a really clear example of this.





Now if you want it super metal sounding and "evil" harmonize in 4ths, that's what Slayer does in songs like "Raining Blood" and "South of Heaven" It has the super medieval sounding slight dissonance to it.
(Play the same lead idea one string up, same fret)

I wish there was a book on this but I've never found one if there is it's probably in Swedish, cause the Swedish melodic death metal bands took the Iron Maiden harmonized lead guitar idea and ran with it.

Best advice is study songs you like that have this kind of playing and break apart what makes them work. There's lots of classic southern rock with this kind of idea (Skynyrd, Outlaws, Allman Brothers). It's the plus of having two lead guitarists.

One of the best songs to ever do this.
Thin Lizzy - "The Boys are Back in Town."
https://youtu.be/nN120kCiVyQ?si=iIQbB1_-yCZ1hP6K

[Ted Duncan]

MS Paint might be more work than it is worth. I just use Google Sheets to map the fret board. Here is a harmonized scale I just did in google sheets. Takes less than a minute.

Yet ANOTHER good reason for the internet.

Bill, that is an OUTSTANDING idea. I don't know about google sheets, but I do have a spreadsheet program.


Necks could be horizontal OR vertical, with spaces and text between or above and below. It would be uniform, neat and clean. I LOVE the idea of filling in the name AND note names. I can make the neck small enough to fit several on a page, yet clear enough to read the characters.

Also use it for Chord or CAGED diagram. And included on the same page. And that page can be added to pages of text ... like in a BOOK!

The mind boggles at the possibilities. I may have to lie down and take a nap.

This is so brilliant, I'm surprised that I didn't come up with it.


BTW, Bill, you might want to center up those numbers and such in the boxes.


Thank you VERY much.

T.

[Ted Duncan]

... in songs like "Raining Blood" ...

Thanks John.

It amazes me that some couple will have that tune played at their 25th wedding anniversary as "Their Song". They will look fondly in each others eyes and dance close while its being played, while the band is doing God knows what up on the stage.

In truth I have been thinking along the lines of music like "Fool Such As I" (Hank Snow NOT Elvis) and maybe something racy like "Pearly Shells", but oddly enough, at 73 years old I am quite fond of Viking Metal and enjoy the bands Turisas, Isengard, Ensiferum and Amon Amarth.

I'm sure that these bands employ double stops, but there is so much going on in their music, it really is hard to tell.

[Bill McCloskey]

Actually, I do center those numbers in my spreadsheets, but that one was just for example's sake.

Google sheet is great because:

1. It is free.

2. You can access your files from any computer anywhere. You don't need a special program to run it.

I create massive amounts of these sheets for the pedal steel, with every combination of pedal and lever, all the chords in every combination. Helps me a lot.

[Fred Treece]

I’m with John. The fretboard map is good for learning where the notes are, but for learning a song or lick note-for-note, it doesn’t get any clearer than notated tab. At least, for me.

An interactive map is great for pedal steel, so you can see where the notes and chords are when a pedal or lever is engaged

I think Guitar Pro (tab software) is still free, as is John Sohn’s Steel Sidekick, which could easily be used for standard guitar. There’s another one called Guitar Map, not sure of it’s availability anymore though.

[Ted Duncan]

I’m with John. The fretboard map is good for learning where the notes are, but for learning a song or lick note-for-note, it doesn’t get any clearer than notated tab. At least, for me.

An interactive map is great for pedal steel, so you can see where the notes and chords are when a pedal or lever is engaged

I think Guitar Pro (tab software) is still free, as is John Sohn’s Steel Sidekick, which could easily be used for standard guitar. There’s another one called Guitar Map, not sure of it’s availability anymore though.

I'm going to give those a look for sure!

Thank you.

UPDATE

Guitar Pro 8 is a very interesting program, but it isn't freeware. The program is about $65 and there is an "upgrade"(?) for an additional $35.

Lesser versions of Guitar Pro (7, 6 etc.) can be downloaded as freeware BUT they are not supported ... and who knows if they are safe, or even work any more. I will give these a closer look maybe tomorrow.

Steel Sidekick and Guitar Map are still up and running.

[Ted Duncan]

Ignore double post. Stoopid cast, splint, brace ... thing.

[Fred Treece]

Sorry, not Guitar Pro. I meant Power Tab. It was a simple free program. I just looked and the download links are dead ends.

[John Larson]

I’m with John. The fretboard map is good for learning where the notes are, but for learning a song or lick note-for-note, it doesn’t get any clearer than notated tab. At least, for me.

I think Guitar Pro (tab software) is still free, as is John Sohn’s Steel Sidekick, which could easily be used for standard guitar. There’s another one called Guitar Map, not sure of it’s availability anymore though.

I think western notation staff for rhythm and timing with the note heads replaced with the tab number and on the corresponding string is the best way. The style Guitar World does their transcriptions.

Guitar Pro isn't free but it's relatively cheap as far as music software goes under $100 and the upgrades are cheap once you've bought it once. Highly recommended as it's the best software I've ever seen for guitar.

You can even do pedal steel transcription on it since you can define custom instruments on the newer versions.

Yeah power tab died a while ago unfortunately.

[Ted Duncan]

Some updates:

1. I checked the MuseScore and it does do both notation AND guitar tab as well as a number of very interesting stuff with chords. I will have to dig deeper into this program.

I changed my goggle search parameters and found some stuff.

1. It turns out that Mel Bay DID put out a book, called, "The Double-Stop Guide A Whole Music Approach for Guitar". There are 2 problems with it. It is out of print and almost ALL(!) of the reviews I read say it is only 38 pages and isn't/wasn't very good. If I can find it used for under $5 I'll buy it and see what's up.

2. I found another book, "Red Hot Country Guitar (Guitar Signature Licks)". The reviews I found on this on ALL say that this one isn't all that good either, but it has an "EXCELLENT" section on double stops. I don't care anything about licks ... but the reviews of the double stops all sound encouraging. I found a used one under $5 ... so I bought it.

3. I did find a couple interesting articles on the internet.

"How To Play Guitar Double Stops" https://hub.yamaha.com/guitars/g-how-to ... ble-stops/

"Guitar Double Stops: What they are and how to play them" https://appliedguitartheory.com/lessons ... ble-stops/

These articles do have more of the diagrams that I am looking for to flesh out the reference "book" I am trying to put together.

[Fred Treece]

Seeing the charts on paper or the video of a player demonstrating with tab is great, but it oftentimes leaves out the technique required to play double stops smoothly. How and when to change string pairs (from 4&3 to 3&2, for example), which fingers to use for fretting and picking - this is all left to the student to figure out unless you have a very patient teacher.

Albert Lee once described his technique as not so much concern with playing through scales as it was playing through chord fragments. Even when it sounds like he’s playing a speedy stream of double stops, it is in fact double stops broken up with single notes along the way, either on a 3rd string of what could be called a triad, or an open string, a muted string, or a change of fretboard position on one of the same strings.

The only player I know of that could play a seemingly endless stream of double stops (and sometimes triple stops) is Scotty Anderson. If you’ve never heard him, prepare to have your mind completely blown.

Mel Bay books are as much about learning to read music as they are about learning anything about guitar. There is almost no technique in them. I think that system is meant to be used with a teacher, at least through the first couple volumes.

Good topic.

[Ted Duncan]

Seeing the charts on paper or the video of a player demonstrating with tab is great, but it oftentimes leaves out the technique required to play double stops smoothly. How and when to change string pairs (from 4&3 to 3&2, for example), which fingers to use for fretting and picking - this is all left to the student to figure out unless you have a very patient teacher.


Mel Bay books are as much about learning to read music as they are about learning anything about guitar. There is almost no technique in them. I think that system is meant to be used with a teacher, at least through the first couple volumes.

As I mentioned above, the reason I want this material is to help composing solos and fills for various songs and such ... and formalizing them using MuseScore. I can play most of this stuff on guitar, but I have never put anything on paper before and could use a little help. I have been putting together a little personal "reference book" containing things I have found useful over the time I've been playing guitar (Circle of Fifths, the CAGED system, scales, how to make chords and more) as well as the new things I learn.

When I say I can play most of this stuff ... I can play double stops in different shapes and keys up and down the length of the neck ... but I have never even looked at playing them over the width of the neck.

BTW ... Although I haven't been able play anything on the lap steel yet because of my fingers, I HAVE been studying every scrap of material and every video I can in preparation. I already have a "reference book" started a while back for lap steel. It was as I was working on that that I decided to "enshrine" material for guitar.

Albert Lee once described his technique as not so much concern with playing through scales as it was playing through chord fragments. Even when it sounds like he’s playing a speedy stream of double stops, it is in fact double stops broken up with single notes along the way, either on a 3rd string of what could be called a triad, or an open string, a muted string, or a change of fretboard position on one of the same strings.

The only player I know of that could play a seemingly endless stream of double stops (and sometimes triple stops) is Scotty Anderson. If you’ve never heard him, prepare to have your mind completely blown.

The guy who caused me to start start thinking about double stops back in the day was Wes Montgomery. I know a lot of what he was doing was octaves, but that was really turned me on to the possibilities. Then there was the one that everybody knows, "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison. After that I starting seeing that harmonized double stops were EVERYWHERE and always had been, I just wasn't paying attention to what I was hearing.

Good topic.

Better is the exchange of information we are having. I'm taking notes like CRAZY. Also, based on this ... conversation, my head was spinning last night after I went to bed. So I got up and dug around some more ... and found a lot more stuff.