GFI Ultra problem with B pedal/LR 6th string split

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Hi, Fellow steel players.

When using pedal B and RL knee g note is flat.

Tune the 6th string, tune pedal B, release the pedal, and the string returns to g# as it should.

Engage the RL knee without pedal B, which lowers to f#, release, and the string is sharp.

I had this problem back in 2/23. Unable to fix it myself after making several adjustments, I took the guitar to Billy Cooper's shop, and he was not able to fix the problem either. I wound up sending the guitar back to the factory.

I welcome any suggestions on how to fix this problem. However, if the fix sounds too complicated, please do not be offended if I do not try it and decide to send the guitar back to the factory. Thank you.

[D. Scheindlin]

If I’m understanding your post, it isn’t a problem per se. The GFI does not have a tunable split. You can, however, add an extra rod and set it up to be a tunable split. I did this on mine. It’s super easy and worth the cost of the extra parts.

[D. Scheindlin]

For a little more detail… email GFI and tell Bob you want a pull kit to add a 6th string split rod. The rod connects from the 1st hole (closest to body) on the bell crank to the top raise hole. When tuning you will tune the B pedal as normal. You’ll tune RKL using the split rod you just added. Then tune the split using the lower rod.

[Ian Rae]

In the past I've performed this exact operation on a GFI - no special tools are required and the company are super helpful.

[Richard Sinkler]

It surprises me that Billy or the factory Didn’t see what you needed and was able to add the split rod.

[D. Scheindlin]

It surprises me that Billy or the factory Didn’t see what you needed and was able to add the split rod.

Yeah, me as well. Strange.

[Ian Worley]

...Tune the 6th string, tune pedal B, release the pedal, and the string returns to g# as it should.
Engage the RL knee without pedal B, which lowers to f#, release, and the string is sharp...

The description of the problem you're having is not as clear as it could be, it sounds like you might actually be discussing two separate issues and receiving advice for the wrong one. If as you say, the 6th string is in tune and returns fine from the B pedal raise alone, but returns sharp after you engage and release the lower alone, this is a separate issue and unrelated to the split. Can you clarify?

RE: adding and tuning a split rod, it's fairly straightforward as discussed above, but I'll add one thing to those descriptions - it's best to always tune the split note first using the lowering rod, then tune the lower alone using the added compensator rod. This avoids potentially chasing your tail, as any change to the lowering rod to adjust the split note will also affect the lowered note alone, but the compensator rod used to tune the lower alone has no effect on the split.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

D. Scheindlin, I have the extra rod and installed myself successfully. It worked for a quite while then went out of tune for some unknown reason. Billy could not fix it. The factory fixed in in February. It's out of tune again. Mr Sinkler, the factory fixed it. It's out again. Mr. Rae, are you able to help me?

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Mr. Worley.

The split involves using the B pedal and the RL knee lever to produce a G note. The G is now flat. Troubleshooting in tune the string, then the pedal and it returns to G# as it should.
Engage the RL knee without pedal B, which lowers to f#, release, and the string is sharp. When this happens I have to retune the string and sometimes retune the B pedal. Understand?

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Mr. Worley,

You said, RE: adding and tuning a split rod, it's fairly straightforward as discussed above, but I'll add one thing to those descriptions - it's best to always tune the split note first using the lowering rod, then tune the lower alone using the added compensator rod. This avoids potentially chasing your tail, as any change to the lowering rod to adjust the split note will also affect the lowered note alone, but the compensator rod used to tune the lower alone has no effect on the split.
If I understand you correctly, this is the opposite of what GFI says should be done. This is getting confusing to me. Thank you.

[Ian Worley]

...Understand?

Yes, I understand perfectly how to set up and tune a split. What I was commenting on above was your description of engaging then releasing the lower alone and having it return sharp (the two lines I quoted). Your description of the exact nature of the problem you're experiencing is still not really clear. A lower returning sharp is not uncommon, but that alone has nothing to do with the split. It's often a product of older strings that have hardened, or sometimes binding in the roller nut among other things, but again those issues are unrelated to the split.

Can we assume that you've verified that overtuning is not causing or contributing to your issue here?

Setting up a split is straightforward. Let's assume that there's no overtuning, that when no pedals and levers are engaged on string 6 you have at least a slight amount of slack on all 3 rods. You have the added raise compensator rod installed correctly to accommodate the split.

1 Back off the nut on the added raise compensator rod a couple of turns

2 Engage the B pedal and tune the A note using the original raise rod

3 Release the B pedal and verify that the string returns to the correct pitch, and that the raise rod still has at least a slight amount of slack

4 Engage both the B pedal and the lever that lowers a whole step and tune the split G note with the nut on the original lowering rod connected to the lever

5 Release both the pedal and lever and verify that the string returns to pitch, and that the lowering rod still has at least a slight amount of slack

6 Engage the lever alone, the F# will be flat. Tune it to correct pitch using the added raise compensator rod

7 Release the lever and verify that the string returns to pitch

At which step does your problem first arise?

[Ian Rae]

Re-reading all this, it appears that the guitar lacks a separate split tuning rod, but it can produce a G note close enough by luck, as sometimes happens.
If the 6th string lower is returning unreliably (treatable by cleaning and adjustment) then the usefulness of the G will vary.

So Michael needs to get the lower sorted so that it's smooth throughout its travel, and then fit the extra rod.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Gentlemen:

Thank you so much for your helpful input. I've had this problem in the past with two different guitars. Most recently, this past February, I sent the guitar in question back to the factory. I never actually checked the split with a tuner when it was returned to me, but it sounded in tune. Before long, it began sounding out of tune.

I disconnected the split rod. Now neither the B pedal nor the KL knee are raising or lowering and returning to G#. Looking underneath, fingers appear to be returning. I don't see anything interfering with rod travel. Again, this is the exact same problem I've had in the past. I don't want to keep sending the guitar back to the factory. If someone here has had the same problem, please call me before 8:00 p.m. EST at 646 676 0682.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

No one here has had a similar problem?

[D. Scheindlin]

Michael, I’d recommend following the steps in Ian Worley’s last post and letting us know where the problem arises. Splits go out of tune like any other string raise or lower (or open). Confirm that there is no overtuning of the rods and follow the steps Ian outlined above and let’s us know exactly where a problem arises and what it is.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Mr. Scheindlin,and fellow steel players,

Thank you. I will try Mr Worley's steps.

I was hysterical yesterday after discovering this problem and did not fully understand all of the replies. This problem was corrected by the factory back in February of this year, and here it is again. I don't want to send the guitar back to the factory, which is in Missouri. It takes pounding by UPS during shipping, and I need to know how to make adjustments when these problems arise. Please don't think I'm an idiot. I am mechanically inclined. I have in the past made adjustments to my vintage Sho-Bud and MSA back in the day. May I call any of you on the phone if I have a question? Thanks again.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Gentleman:


Here's the latest: I disconnected the split rod for now. Tune the 6th string and A note pedal B and release. Next, engage the RL knee, and the lower F# is sharp. Tune lower down to F# and release. G# is now sharp.

[Jack Stoner]

I have the tunable split on my GFI.
Tuning procedure:

First, back off (loosen) all the nylon tuning nuts for the 6th string, in case one is overtuned.
1. Tune the G# open
2. Tune the A raise
3. Tune the split with the nylon tuning nut in the "lower" hole.
4. Tune full lower with extra rod/nylon tuning nut in raise hole.

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Jack,


Thank you.      What you and Mr. Morley are saying is the opposite of the split rod setup I had until I disconnected the rod yesterday. I successfully installed the split rod a couple of years ago according to GFI's written instructions. The GFI split rod is installed in the raised part of the changer. Next, lower the lower rod too far and raise it with the split rod. To clarify, what I want to achieve is to step on pedal B for an A note, then engage the knee lever for a G note. Since I'm not at all familiar with the split you are describing, I don't know what to do now.

[D. Scheindlin]

Michael, I’m fairly busy today but if I have time I’ll give you a call, but it’s going to be tough. What you are describing really sounds to me like an overtuning problem. Have you tried backing off ALL tuning nuts operated by the RKL and retuning? In other words not just the string lower but raises on 1, 2 and 6 as well.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=326460

[D. Scheindlin]

Michael, I don’t know how you had it set up but the proper setup is described in my second post. Reference the diagram here: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... d3c172f0c1

And make sure nothing is overtuned on RKL per my previous post. .

[Michael J Pfeifer]

Mr Scheindlin,

Thank you. No need for you to go out of your way. Call me when it's convenient for you before 8:00 PM EST

Quote, " In other words not just the string lower but raises on 1, 2 and 6 as well." No I have not done that nor am I familiar with over or under turning.

As I'm understanding you, in order to get the B pedal and RL knee to go in tune, I need to back off all tuning rods. I'm guessing now I tune B pedal, then RL knee, then raises and lowers on strings 2 and 1? Is that right? I thought the strings with the longest travel needed to be tuned first. Since I don't know what strings they are, I'm confused as to how to proceed.


The diagram in the link you sent is the same as GFI's instructions. Once I get pedal B and RL knee tuned properly when both are engaged, they should be sharp of G.

[Richard Sinkler]

Read this "sticky" about overtuning.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=326460

[Ian Worley]

Michael, you might look into having someone semi-local give you a hand in person. Jon Light is up in Saugerties, or John Widgren is in Wilton, CT, closer to NYC. You can find them both here on the forum, I'm sure either one would have you sorted in no time, there are probably others within driving range too. Best of luck.

[D. Scheindlin]

Michael, start with 1 & 2. Tune them open then tune the raises. Then move on to your 6th string.