Excel Keyless 3rd string

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 24 Dec 2006 11:01 am

Ok all you Excel keyless players out there...I seem to be the only guy who has problems with his Excel 3rd string ...I have now tried 3 different brands of strings , all .011's ...They snap at the ball end just above the fork that the ball sit's in where it comes to the first edge that the string bends over on...Right there is where the strings are breaking ...They come up to pitch OK, but as soon as I start to push on the B pedal, SNAPPEROO !!.... I thought at first it was the strings, but I am skeptical now ... Have any of you Excel players had my luck ?...I don't know how Mitsuo put strings on this steel to last as long as they did ...I've had the Excel almost a year, and wanted to see how long the strings would last....This is my first broken string in almost a year !!.... I guess I had that magic 3rd string on there, because I sure can't get any other one to work ...Any idea's ??...Thank God I have a backup steel ....Not a good time for things like this to happen !!...It forces me to sit longer at the table and eating too much Holiday food !!.... It's a rough life !!

I am truely blessed , and thank God every day for my blessings ....Happy Holidays to all !!..
Sincerely, Jim

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 24 Dec 2006 11:06 am

I'm not an Excel'er (an Excel'ant?) but my first thought--was the long lasting string a reinforced string, ala Ernie Ball's long twist strings (a longer portion of the ball end has windings). Or to confuse matters, I see that Jagwires boast of short twists as an option....for longer life. Beats me. But whatever--can you identify what type of string it was that lasted so long?

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 24 Dec 2006 12:51 pm

Jim, I had that problem last April when I changed my Excel from C6th that I put on it when I bought it in April of 2000. I never had broken a string, but I decided to go back to the E9th that came on the guitar when I bought it from Scotty. The strings were old Ernie Ball strings that I'd had on hand before I got the Excel and stopped playing the D10 Zum. I later
sold the Zum. I broke 2 or 3 and finally got one to hold at F# and decided to quit while I was ahead and set it up D9th. Much to my surprise I discovered that I had forgotten about half of the good stuff I used to play on E9th! I played, as best I could three gigs tuned to D9th & then gave up & tuned back to the C6th. I did discover a slight burr on the 3rd string at the point you descibed your trouble to be, at the slot where the ball end goes. On my steel, which is not a Superb, that is at the 'keyless' end, not the changer end. The burr may have been doing in the strings or it may have been the fact that they were old strings & their "shelf life" had expired?!

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 24 Dec 2006 3:38 pm

I see that Jagwires boast of short twists as an option....for longer life<<

Hey Jon, the reason for the short twists is so the string itself lies on the changer and not on the twist. The string laying on the twist at the changer bend will reduce string life. A great string is RAY LINE...IMHO. I had one third on my Mullen for a year and had to remove because it went dead and yes I talking about E9th tuned with a Peterson tuner so I was up to proper pitch...hope this helps

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 24 Dec 2006 7:09 pm

The strings that broke on mine had both long twists, and short twists....The shorter twisted strings broke faster than the longer ones...I'm going to have to look at the mechanics to see if I can see a burr or perhaps the edge where the string bends is too sharp an edge, and it's actually cutting the string ...Why it didn't do it to the one that was originally on there is beyond me ..I can tell you that the strings break in the EXACT same spot , which tell's me that it would be highly unlikely that I would have strings from various manufacturers , that had a weak point at the same area on the string ....This tell's me that it's the steel and not the string ... I'll let you guys know when I look thru a magnifying glass to see a little better ...Thanks to all for their advise ..It's appreciated ...Sincerely, Jim

PS...The SIT strings are suppose to be the ones that will hold , but other folks that use the Jagwires have no problem at all ..This also tells me I have a problem with my particular steel ...[This message was edited by James Quackenbush on 24 December 2006 at 07:19 PM.]

Larry Hicks · Post by **Larry Hicks** » 24 Dec 2006 8:12 pm

James,
Sorry to hear you’re having Excel trouble. There is very probably not a better resource on the Excel than Bill Stafford. I suggest talking to Bill and getting his take on this. He and Mitsuo were the co-designers of the Excel Superb. If anyone can help you, Bill’s da man!
Good Luck

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 24 Dec 2006 8:17 pm

The Anapeg and Excel Superb pull in a straight line, so there is no bending. Cuts down string breaking to almost nil.

The Williams changer cuts down their bending at least 50% over regular guitars, so cutting down the breaking strings a lot.

I wonder why the other companies don't use somthing like that.?....al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 24 Dec 2006 9:02 pm

Jim, I play a Kline (keyless) and all my 3rd string breakage ended years ago when I switched to .012's. In fact, I beefed up my E string to a .015 and my B string to a .018. It seems to give a fatter sound also.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 25 Dec 2006 7:39 am

Just a note to Brad---the reason for my reference to the Jag short winds is that I was amused that their solution to x-tra strength was the short wind, yet Ernie Ball's answer to the same problem is long wind. Makes me want to try no wind at all. Maybe just a dab of super glue.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 25 Dec 2006 7:54 am

Jon...It is quite easy to clamp the string at both ends with screws as is done on the tuner end of a keyless. In that case the wind problem goes away completely.

I have tried that on the BEAST, but because of the low angle of my strings over the finger, went with the ball and hole approach.

The thin strings are more stressed in the wrap/wind area. The 0.011" strings at 30 pounds tension (approx) are just about at the limit of their tensile strength anyway, so the added stress at the wind/wrap push them closer to the edge.

Then there is the "ultrasonic machining" effect at the top of the finger when they are vibrating, which is further aggravated by finger roughness or burrs.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Dec 2006 8:02 am

Jon and friends,
I have the same feelings about the winds or lack of ..I'm still not sure what the answer is ...I took the edge off of the gizmo where the string was breaking ...It still breaks but not as fast ...So now I will try going to an ..0115 or an .012 to see how that works for me ...I wasn't thrilled with the tone of the original .011 anyway, so if a thicker string will hold the tune, that will work wonders for me ... I just don't understand how someone can have the same steel as I have, and be able to put certain strings on, that I can't ...I did talk to Bill Stafford ( he's the man !! ) and Michael J. ( another great Excel player )and I will try some SIT strings on this steel to see if that works out ....It does bother me that I HAVE to use a certain brand of strings because they are the ONLY game in town that works ... I will be very happy if I can change the gauge to an .0115 or an .012 and that works out so that I don't break strings....This is really getting rediculous ...I've already broken over 1/2 dozen strings and have a nice slice across my pinky finger from strings snapping on me ...I'm hoping to get the bottom of this problem soon..Thanks for all the replies ..Sincerely, Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Dec 2006 8:06 am

Ed,
Can you please post a mini chart of the tension's that these strings hold ?

1) .011
2) .0115
3) .012

Thanks in advance, and if this has been posted before , please refer me to the thread ...Thanks again...Sincerely, Jim

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 25 Dec 2006 8:08 am

So do you reject the Ernie Ball extra long reinforced winding as faulty thinking? I was always skeptical of this string, but on sonic grounds--it just didn't seem kosher to have the string's end-wrap sitting on the changer finger. Plus it concerned me, re: abrasion of the finger.

--Jim---this is nothing but personal observation but it seems to me that the increase in tension of a 12 (which I use) is counteracted by its increase heft. The result in longevity, in my experience, is basically a wash, compared with an 11. But I prefer the tone.

---another edit--too much real time stuff going on---my question re: ernie balls is directed to Ed.
[This message was edited by Jon Light on 25 December 2006 at 08:12 AM.][This message was edited by Jon Light on 25 December 2006 at 08:16 AM.]

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Dec 2006 9:16 am

Jon,
After spending much time reading past discussions on the string sizes, I found something that was interesting ...You mention the heft and added tension of the .012 making it a wash to use ...There is one thing you may have overlooked..There is less movement required to bring a heavier string to pitch...Therefore, you don't need as much travel to bring a heavier string up to ( raise ) or down to ( lower) pitch when bending your string...Less movement , less wear an tear on the string in question ..The strings that get raised and lowered the most , and the thinnest guaged strings, are the ones that break the most ... The theory that Ricky Davis and others have about winding the string around the tuner more times is a moot point as I have a keyless tuner... I'm going to order some .115's and some .012's and see if I can keep either one on my steel without them breaking .... I still have more questions than answers, but hopefully the heavier string gauge will do the trick ...Sincerely, Jim

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 25 Dec 2006 11:28 am

"Makes me want to try no wind at all."

I order Fender "Super Bullet" single strings from this site: http://www.juststrings.com/purenickelfenderguitarsinglestrings.html

No windings... Mmmmmmmm

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 25 Dec 2006 12:42 pm

John et al:

Some music wire information here:
http://www.precisionbrand.com/products/default.asp?p_catid=48

There are many "string makers", but few music wire sources for them to use.

The tensions in the ball wrap make reduce the KPSI that the wire can take in tension, plus there may be denting of the main wire where the wrap terminates.

The larger the wire dia of a given type (stainless, high carbon, etc), the more tension that will be required to obtain pitch.

The Sq In of the dia changes quickly when the dia is increased from 0.011 to 0.0115, to 0.120 inches.

The G# tension on a 0.011" varies between about 28 pounds to 33 pounds depending upon scale length. Bending of the wire adds shear strength problems to the tensile strength
(straight pull) issues.

I prefer the shorter ball wind for all gauge strings...the thinking re durability vs wind can be argued many ways, but the issue is a complex one and has to do with more than the length of the wind.

Hope that this is more help than confusion.

Rick Nicklas · Post by **Rick Nicklas** » 25 Dec 2006 4:23 pm

I told you that ever since I switched to the .012's years ago, I have never had to even think about 3rd string breakage. This is not entirely true... There was a time I remember buying a dozen Earnie Ball .012's and snapped almost everyone of them before giving up. The brand I switched to and have complete confidence in are D'Addario's. In fact I put that brand on all my unwounds (Model: Acoustic or Electric Plain Steel). Do you have the 25 inch neck or 24+ ... The 25" neck will put a little extra tension or longer pedal throw to get your raises from what I have read on the forum and it makes sense to me.[This message was edited by Rick Nicklas on 25 December 2006 at 04:27 PM.]

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 25 Dec 2006 5:29 pm

James,,my Lamar is a straight pull design. I wouldn't use anything but 12s on 3rd string,,for tone and ???,,,it's been 4 months,,,have broke one yet,,,,

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Dec 2006 6:05 pm

John,
The scale on my steel is 25 1/2 inches ...I think it's the longest in the business...

Sonny,
I'm leaning that way with the 12's ...The 11's are just not doing it !!...

Ed,
Thanks for the info ... If I'm reading what you said right, the longer winds have more problems than the shorter winds ? and that the winds have more to do with the problem than the actual string ? ....I can agree with that because my string is breaking everytime at the end of the wind..Same place EVERY time !!.... Maybe the short wind Jagwire 12's will do the job...I'm gonna try them out ....Thanks again to all ...Sincerely, Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Dec 2006 6:18 pm

Rick,
I've read a lot of thread on this issue, and there was mention of the Ernie Balls not fairing well ...I won't speak for them as I have never used them ...I'm only speaking of what I have read ... Any which way you slice this cake, it looks like minimum .0115 and preferably .012's is the way I need to go ... I would think that since the 3rd string is a common problem, that at least ONE string maker would come up with a solution for it rather than just reccomending a heavier gauge string ..Isn't there a way (like fly fishing line) whereby there can be a heavier gauge ( .012 or so ) by the ball end, reducing to .011 after about an inch or so to deal with the wind issue ??.. Perhaps this is why I'm hearing from guys using Jagwires with much success...They have the shorter winds !!...I'll give them a try ...I'll order .011's, .0115's and .012's and see how they work ... If I can put .011's on and not have them break, I'll be AMAZED !!..

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 25 Dec 2006 6:19 pm

James, I sure hate to hear about this problem you are having. I have an older EXCEL -it is over 3 years old now. Yours is evidently one of the newer models and I am not familiar with that system yet. I will do some research on this and be in touch.
Question-before this problem developed, have you been tuning this string to the new pulled pitch to bring it up to the note you wanted? Sometimes the changer can be tweaked upwards quite a lot. When the string breaks, the changer mechanism might be pulling too far for a new string. Try to back this tuning rod out so it is not making contact with the mechanism' finger. Bring the string to pitch and then see if there is a little slack in the pedal mechanism before it starts to pull the string to the required note. Then readjust the tuning rod and see what happens.
I have a friend here who has one of the new models and I will look at this guitar. I know he is not having any problem with his at all. I will try to get him in touch with you also. He does a lot of session work here and changes his strings often for bright and new sound in the studio. Keep me posted. Hopefully it will be resolved soon.

Bill Stafford

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 25 Dec 2006 8:59 pm

Just use Jagwires and put a regular .011 for your 3rd string and this discussion will be over. If not - then you got a burr somewhere.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 26 Dec 2006 7:11 am

MJ, sorry to say ..that may not necessarily be true.

My intent is not to DISS any person or brand, but I had excessive breakage with several Jagwire .011's. All out of the same 12 string package....

I still have some but I generally use George L's or Cobra's...

and yes, the exact same string /post and tuning method. No burrs, smooth free rollers.

Can't explain what happened but when I went back to a different pack of spares regular life returned.

I wrote it off as a dip in the curve and still use Jagwires often.[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 26 December 2006 at 07:12 AM.]

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 26 Dec 2006 8:02 am

JIm...I am less concerned with long vs. short winds than the mechanics by which they are obtained; this is before they are attached to the instrument, in which case they may or may not "rub things the wrong way".

The variables involved are the dia tolerance of the basic string wire, the adjustment and maintenance of the winding/ballwrap equipment, how the QA and batch sampling/control in the string supliers organization functions, and such. These things will determine wether you may get hit with a batch that wil cause trouble on your particular instrument more so than wind/wrap length.

The idea of a thicker string wire at the wrap area is out of sync with the string manufacturer getting a large roll of music wire from their supplier...the wire is all one size +/- the tolerance, and as you can see from the referenced link, has a variance in tensile strength allowed.

You 25+1/2" scale length means that your G# 11 is being tensioned at the high end...towards 33 pounds pull...sounds like the music wire has no trouble taking this, but the weakness is where the clamping effect of the wind to the music wire (last twists) is the specific problem area. I know of no way to control this problem outside of batch level testing...don't ask the string makers as they don't tend to devulge their process and process control info.

I use a 25" scale but my keyless tuner is integrated with the changer, so my string wrap angle across the finger is 5 to 10 degrees. ALL of the pull is applied to the ball itself. I have had ocasions where the wrap actually unwound from pull for a certain string when tested for maximum allowable pull. How the ball end is anchored and pulled counts BIG. The whole ball wrap issue would go away if the string was clamp screw anchored at both ends with shallow over the finger/nut angles, and shallow approach to the clamp screw head....but then the string maker would be out of business!

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 26 Dec 2006 9:32 am

Tony I can dig it and I've had bad batches of strings from most brands I've tried - just not Jagwires - yet. When I played 24.xx" scale guitars,any brand of strings would do and I used Ernie Balls or SITs because theyre cheap,available and anyone who was anyone could an endorsement deal. But when I started playing a 25" Sierra - even tho it was keyless,I started to have problems keeping .011s on there and had to use the strings Sierra put on their guitars when they shipped which were made by Kaman.When that whole thing came to an end I freaked out until I tried Jagwires and they've served me well. Now I'm on an Excel 25.5" keyless and I've only broken 2 .011s and that was at the nut as I was bringing them up to pitch. I took those 2 strings to be duds and haven't had any more breakage w/Jagwiers in the 4 years I've had that ax. YMMV.