Is it still worth it?

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 7 Sep 2023 3:34 pm

I've built and used tube amps for decades. I've had ridiculous home HiFi setups with big modified Altec multicell theater horns with low powered direct heated single ended triode amps that took up entire rooms. Best sound I ever heard. I've done all kinds of tube musical instrument amps with great classic speakers. I love em all.

But, I'm older now. My hearing isn't up to what it once was. My back isn't up to lifting what it used to be. Maybe I'm not the amp snob I used to be.

I've been playing my Gretsch armpit guitar through a Mustang GTX100 amp. Thumb style guitar. Low end of the amp modeling setups I know. But I'm impressed.

As mentioned earlier, I'm older and my hearing isn't up to what it used to be. But my current setup makes me wonder if the all analog tube setup that I've sworn by for years is still worth it. Especially with the current tube supply being in the state that it is.

I'm still running 45 triodes or 2A3's in my HiFi amps, along with high efficiency good speakers (though I no longer have room for the big theater horns). I still have (too)many good tube guitar amps with good old speakers to match. But is it still worth it? Just don't know any more.

Dave

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 7 Sep 2023 4:24 pm

I built an Allen Encore tube amp with 6V^ output tubes. It has reverb to die for and tons of harmonic warmth and a really versatile tone stack. It's been even better since I put a Ragin" Cajun speaker in it. Overall I like it better than my Fender Princeton Rverb amp.

Lately I've been using the ToneX pedal for steel and guitar and it duplicates the tube sound 100% but offers a lot more control over the tone of the amp and the reverb with many adjustable parameters. I use it direct for recording and with headphones for practicing. So my tube amps sit idle now and there's no more dealing with room or studio acoustic variations.

I can also run the ToneX pedal into my ToneBlock 202 setup and get a good sound with all the tube like warmth. I've had that much luck with the Fractal Axe 3 but those running the Kemper have had stellar results emulating the tube amps.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 7 Sep 2023 4:26 pm

If it is to YOU then it is and I can’t argue. I have pretty good hearing and value tone and “soul” above all. When I first heard an Evans FET my “tube wall” began to crack. A few years ago when I got a Quilter that wall came tumbling down! That’s what works for me now. I know it’s different for others.

Chris Harwood · Post by **Chris Harwood** » 7 Sep 2023 4:48 pm

I was kinda in your situation, except I don't build amps. Had the "band" PA...or the 2nd PA, for my personal stereo. All loaded with JBL with JBL drivers and horn lens. Sounded great. Amps too. Finally sold the last of my tube amps about 5 years ago. Had the "full stack" guitar amps, plus lots of the little stuff.

Nowadays I have a killer, computer based home studio that would rival any 1980's setup as far as "gear"(all software now) and is MUCH easier to use than those old 2" machines. There are still "die hards" that have to have tape...just like they have to have tube amps. But I have as many 1176 compressors that you might want and the entire Eventide lineup...with some Lexicon and tons of new stuff that is actually better in some ways.

I bought a Line6 Helix and it replaces ALL my amps and ALL my pedals. The settings are repeatable and it has everything you might imagine and the tweaking is easy to learn. If it died today, I'd buy another tomorrow...but it's been "on" for 5 years now in my studio. Used it in church too.

Some claim they can hear the differences...but in a mix, I can tell you no way...at least in my opinion. Yes... a live amp in the room is another feel and the answer to that is a Fender Tonemaster or something similar. Fender "replicated" their amps in digital format and stuck them in a genuine Fender cab with speaker. They look great and sound basically identical to their 1960's counterparts.

Get some good home studio monitors (but I still have my trusty JBL4311 studio monitors) and concentrate on the instruments you want to keep. Ditch all that old school "folder horn" stuff and the 50lb twin reverbs. You may be surprised the new stuff actually might sound better.

I'll put on my asbestos suit now, as I know there are a lot of "purists" around here and HAVE TO have their Peavey's or Deluxes... but unless you can afford the space and roadies... it's 2023. Musical instruments nowadays are a God send. My $350 Classic Vibe Telecaster rivals my old Fenders, that I bought new. $350 is a couple of dinners out on the town.

Oh...I'm 70 yrs old and music is my life...and my dawgs and wife. I started as a kid. I love it...and I'm sure like Pete Townsend of the Who...my hearing has "changed" a bit too!!

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 7 Sep 2023 5:08 pm

A lot of the top pros I admire opt for assorted Peavey steel amps for live play, if not for the studio. For them it’s their livelihood so the don’t cut any corners.

Off the top of my head I am thinking of Buck Reid, Doug Jernigan, Mike Johnson, and Steve Hinson. That’s a testimony for solid state. OTOH, there are those that go different directions. So just like guitar brands, shirt colors, and brands of cars, it seems to be personal preference.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 7 Sep 2023 5:14 pm

A Twin Reverb with 2 JBL 12's, or even the 1x15" Vibroverb, weights a lot more than a Webb or Evans with a single JBL 15, but it still sounds awesome enough that it's a difficult choice. If I have the stage room and a crew doing the heavy lifting it would be a pair of tube amps, but if I'm packing the gear myself it will usually be the Webb.

Brad Sarno's Steel Guitar Black Box will warm up the front end but there is no substitute for the response of big tube power.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 8 Sep 2023 1:15 am

We should distinguish between what you the performer enjoy and what is apparent to the audience, other band members, producers or engineers.

I think that thermionic devices* are great for hifi where you're the end customer but for performing situations a quality solid-state rig will generate zero complaints from anyone else and is lighter and maintenance-free.

I still voted yes, else why would they still make the tubes?

[*spellcheck wants "thermonuclear" but I definitely mean valves/tubes. An atomic amp would have plenty of headroom but I foresee environmental difficulties]

Bill Duncan · Post by **Bill Duncan** » 8 Sep 2023 3:31 am

At one time or another I have hated and loved every amp or piece of equipment I have had.
I voted yes, but I could as easily voted no.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 8 Sep 2023 4:15 am

At one time or another I have hated and loved every amp or piece of equipment I have had.
I voted yes, but I could as easily voted no.

This

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 8 Sep 2023 5:51 am

Tube amps may have been "The Thing" at one time, though they never were for me way back when. I had a Fender Twin from the early 70's with 2-12" Jensens. and had it till the mid 80's and just never warmed up to it. Enter Peavey Session 400 "Limited" and I agree, it was limited. Never warmed up to it either, but loved the Session 500 and to a lesser degree the older Session 400.

Today, I use both Tubes and Solid State. I never thought of myself as a tube guy till I got one of Mike Scaggs' p2p Bad Dawg amps with 2-12's, it has all kinds of power, with exceptional tone. I also use the new Quilter 202 Toneblock with both a 12" and 15" cabinet love it. Again with a ton of power and really nice warmth to it.

Really happy with what I think is the best of both worlds with Tubes and SS, so not real sure you have to pick one over the other these days.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 8 Sep 2023 7:07 am

My favorite amp right now is a Fender Vibrosonic, or maybe it's a Vibrasonic.
It's the model with the "steel" channel.
Fender hired an outside engineer to design it and they only made it for a couple of years.
It has a 15" JBL speaker in it.

Erv

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 8 Sep 2023 7:15 am

I can make myself happy with a solid state amp.

SH

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 8 Sep 2023 7:22 am

For pedal steel, I prefer a PV 400 with transistors (old LTD or Session). For lap steel, there's nothing quite like a small, tube rectified Fender or CMI (Kalamazoo, Epi, or Gibson) amp that's nearly dimed.

Brooks Montgomery · Post by **Brooks Montgomery** » 8 Sep 2023 8:27 am

I voted yes. In general terms, for blues and rock guitar, blues harp, blues lap steel.
But pedal steel, I’d say not as important, and there are SS amps that sound great with pedal.

Karl Paulsen · Post by **Karl Paulsen** » 9 Sep 2023 1:28 pm

I went through an all tube phase for bass and am absolutely done. To much weight and never enough dependability.

On steel there's a tube preamp and reverb driver in my Half and Half and I tell myself I can hear the difference but who the heck knows. What I do know is that I'll probably never hear enough difference in a valve power section for it to be worth it to me to schlep aroundthe added weight.

If I ever get the craving more tubeyness in the future, I'll find the scratch for a black box.

I find play 6 string, so I can't comment on tubes in that realm.

Noah Miller · Post by **Noah Miller** » 9 Sep 2023 2:10 pm

When they start making SS amps that sound like my old Nationals and Ampegs, I'll be happy to reconsider - but until that happens, I'm sticking with the only way to get those sounds, and that's with tubes.

Tim Toberer · Post by **Tim Toberer** » 9 Sep 2023 2:33 pm

The score is tied at halftime! I voted no, but only because I am in a SS phase right now. https://www.tdpri.com/threads/class-d-6 ... s.1138592/
I had so much fun building this amp and honestly it sounds very much like a vintage tube amp. So cheap and fun to build, light and easily repairable. Plenty loud and clear for steel guitar. My Tweed Deluxe is still my favorite amp however it is just too loud no MV. My next SS amp will be more inspired by the Deluxe.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 9 Sep 2023 2:59 pm

The poll is pretty much divided equally at this post. I didn't vote because I don't know if I have a concrete opinion on the subject.

A large part of my sound comes from the front end modeler type preamp/multifx units that I use.

My observations are that I believe I prefer tubes for straight, slide and lap steel guitars. I think many guitar slingers like the natural break up and distortion that comes from valves.

Many pedal steel players and pedal steel electronics are much different. The pickups on pedal steel sometimes cause tube amps to break up too much for a pristine clean, clear sound plus it takes a lot more power which equates to more heft.

I've used several different amps for pedal steel starting with the old Peavey LTD and a few Peavey amps in between.
I used a big MosValve/TubeWorks rig for many years. Only tubes there are preamp tubes in the preamp and the reverb unit.

I have an old low watt Silvertone 1482 with 2 6V6 output tubes that I used a couple of times with a 12 string Uni I used to have. I was quite surprised that it held up that strong on the bandstand.

Through some begging, trading and borrowing I've just acquired a valve TubeWorks ProValve 50/50 stand alone power amp that uses 4 6L6GC tubes.

I haven't had a chance to try it with pedal steel yet so I'm interested to see how it does. I really like it a lot with the Nashville T style guitar I'm playing....I guess time will tell and maybe I can vote later if the topic is still open.

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 10 Sep 2023 7:40 am

I voted for tubes because I have A/B'd tube vs solid state many times and so far tubes have always won on tone. I have yet to try any of the high end SS amps made for PSG. I'd especially like to try the Telonics stuff.

Currently I use a mixture of all-tube amplifiers (Fenders, a Soldano) and digital modelers from Universal Audio and Neural DSP. If volume and freight are not an issue I have my real amps. Otherwise a Quad Cortex is lighter than any amp, SS options included. And plugins in my DAW are far more convenient than any SS option. Moreover the digital modelling far surpasses any solid state amp I've heard for tone. I just don't see a reason to use a solid state amp for anything: they sound worse than my tube amps and they're more inconvenient (and certainly more heavy!) than software or the Quad Cortex.

Maybe I just haven't heard the right SS amp yet though.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 10 Sep 2023 11:50 am

Some are better that others.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 11 Sep 2023 7:27 am

The closest SS amp sounding like a tube amp is the Webb.
When you turn it off, the pilot light even fades out slowly.
Erv

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 11 Sep 2023 7:48 am

I've been happy with my old Session 500, but I've been happy with my Milkman PS300 too, and this past weekend my head-cab Twin-Reverb turned in a good performance through a clone-Bassman cab. I think overall, though, that the differences are so minimal that only we will notice them and that what counts most is the ease of getting gear from where it is to where we're playing.

I read once that Ted Nugent's Seventies stage amp rig was SIX Fender Super Twins, each on top of a Dual Showman cab.....

I'm certain that Nuge had people to do the (I do mean) heavy lifting.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 11 Sep 2023 7:58 am

Dave Hopping wrote: I read once that Ted Nugent's Seventies stage amp rig was SIX Fender Super Twins, each on top of a Dual Showman cab.....

I'm certain that Nuge had people to do the (I do mean) heavy lifting.

When Nugent played the Alaska State Fair in Palmer in the early 2000's he had ten double stacked Marshall cabs, including one that was the dedicated pyro target, already bearing the burn marks of many a flaming arrow.

None of these cabs was plugged in, I can't say they even had speakers in them, as the amp he actually played through was a mic'd Peavey tube combo hidden behind the upstage curtain and fed to the stage monitors.

His bass player used a single, very real Ampeg SVT.

And that's show biz folks...

Justin Shaw · Post by **Justin Shaw** » 11 Sep 2023 8:16 am

Dave Hopping wrote: I think overall, though, that the differences are so minimal that only we will notice them and that what counts most is the ease of getting gear from where it is to where we're playing.

I agree but I also factor in what I find inspiring to play. This is a luxury to be sure. There's lots of situations where not even I can tell because of the mix. Also there are times where I'm happy to bring non-tube stuff because then the tube stuff is safe at home haha.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 11 Sep 2023 9:45 am

What Justin said

The Steel Guitar Forum

Is it still worth it?

Is Tube amplification still the thing?

Is it still worth it?

...well...