Overdrive/Distortion Pedal

[Bruce Roger]

I love the clean sound of my Melbert 8-string lap steel that has a George L 10-1 pickup (Jimmy Day style, 19.5 ohms), through my Polytone amp. However, I wonder if I should get an overdrive pedal to have the option of thickening the sound.

I came across this Paul Franklin interview about distortion [https://youtu.be/C-s9JgwKhmc?t=2025 starting at +33.45]. Is he saying two opposing things?:

1. “pickups are wound at… between 13,000-20,000 ohms. So they hit [effects] pedals too hard…. “

Does that sound more distorted?

2. “But when a guitar player sounds distorted, this [steel] tends to sound clean because of the nature of the instrument. I think it's because [it’s] twenty thousand ohms”

Is he saying that a) the same pedal sounds less distorted with a steel, or b) the steel will cut through the mix — despite being played through a distortion box?

3. And finally, although I’m not interested in a heavily-distorted rock sound, do any of you use an overdrive to just slightly thicken your sound?

Thanks.

Bruce

[Noah Miller]

1. This is more complicated than the statement suggests. DC resistance by itself doesn't tell you much of anything about a pickup's output - Rickenbacker horseshoes, for example, are often in the 1.5K range and they're still hotter than the sun.

But a louder pickup does indeed lead to more distortion through the same pedal at the same setting than a quieter pickup. This is mainly an issue for effects like phasers or delays that aren't supposed to distort; for an overdrive pedal, you can always just turn down the gain knob.

2. I have no idea what he's trying to say here. Again, having a hot pickup may lead to more distortion, not less. It may also lead to more compression in some amps.

3. If thickening the sound is your goal, you might consider an EQ and/or compressor instead of a dirt pedal.

[Fred]

I almost always have the option of some kind of distortion available with both lap and pedal steel. Often just to thicken the sound or make it it a bit edgy. A distortion that transitions smoothly from clean to dirty works best for me.

I use the volume and tone controls on the guitar (if it has them) a lot. Then into a volume pedal, then the distortion. My all time favorite pedal for this is the original Sans Amp. They sell it now as the Sans Amp Classic.

It's extremely versatile but not very intuitive. I like to keep it within reach rather than on the floor.

I don't know what Paul Franklin was trying to say, but all things being equal, a hotter signal will distort more. And it doesn't really matter if there's some way to cut the signal.

[Bruce Roger]

Thanks for the responses.

Noah, I do use an EQ and compressor, and I like that sound.

I cited the resistance because Paul did, with the understanding that my pickup has to differ in some way from lower resistance pickups on single coil Strats. Just how it differs in relation to pedals and amps is the question. Sure would be great if Scotty’s still existed and I could just run over there and try out the pedals.

Fred, I can see why you’d like the Tube Amp Emulator Pedal: there seems to be a lot of choices.

How does it vary from the Sarno Black Box (tube pickup driver/buffer)? Option for more distortion? Famous steel player Black Box testimonials cite smoothing out tone while giving it more depth, a bigger dimension, and a "fatter" sound.

As far as overdrive pedals, most of the reviews focus on how they work with single coil Teles and Strats, through a scooped mid-range Fender Deluxe. It’s hard to know how that would sound with a steel.

Paul described the Benado NeutraDrive as “like a Zen Drive.”
I’ve seen this Zen Drive clone online: Warm Audio Warmdrive Legendary Overdrive Pedal. Would this be the cheap way to get the same sound without the big bucks for the Benado?

Or, is the problem that the Benado is only modifying the sound of the PF 89 Little Walter 100w. amp?

Can anybody provide feedback on any of these other overdrives:
Sarno Earth Drive
Wampler Triumph Overdrive Pedal
JHS 3 Series Overdrive Pedal
J. Rockett Audio Designs Archer Boost/Overdrive Pedal

Thanks.
Bruce

[Tucker Jackson]

Bruce, I can only speak to the two Sarno boxes you mentioned.

The Black Box is not designed to give you any real hair. It's designed to add tube warmth -- but it's got gobs of headroom and will not break-up. This is a very subtle effect in that you may not notice it's doing anything until you remove it from the chain.

For overdrive, Sarno makes the Earth Drive. He's a steel player and understands that most want a unit that is transparent and doesn't change the EQ profile. So, with the overdrive on, a steel still sounds like a steel. And it plays well with the hotter pickups we often use. Recommended.

[K Maul]

I swear by the Xotic BB Preamp. You can increase the gain just a *little* and use the bass and treble controls to warm or fatten things up. Also you can crank the gain and get a very sweet overdrive. They are versatile and not very expensive.

[Bob Hoffnar]

I watched the vid also. I think you over complicated Paul’s statements. He was talking casually about musical applications along with steel guitar pickups generally being much hotter than guitar pickups. So overdrive pedals often react differently. Plus he was talking about his pickups which are Bill Lawrence 710’s . They are wound a bit different than standard pickups. Don’t worry about the numbers. If you have a sound you want to hear start experimenting with overdrives. There are about a zillion of them and they all are a bit different from each other. People buy and sell overdrives on Reverb so that might be a good way to start your experiment. Warm audio makes great bang for the buck gear. Might be a good place to start. I use a Sarno Earth Drive which is fantastic for subtle grit. Also I have settled on a King Of Tone from Analogman which is made with unobtainium and therefor stupid expensive. Unless you get on the very long list that doesn’t move until you have completely forgotten about it.

Anyhoo, distortion and overdrives are a super fun and can be very useful. I keep 3 on my pedalboard at all times.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Years ago, I stumbled onto a great two pedal combination that gives total control over mild crunch with chords to heavier distortion. A MXR Micro Amp pedal in front of a MXR Dynacomp compressor pedal. Dial in the amount of compression to get that mild pop. Then dial up the Micro Amp to get what you like to hear for crunch. Most crunch/overdrive pedals with steel make it difficult to dial in the thicker sounding crunch for more than one note at a time. These two pedals together seem to solve that issue for steel.

[Brooks Montgomery]

Following this with interest. I keep experimenting with various pedals, always love to see what those with more experience are using.
My latest iteration is a little pedal board that I play dobro, lap steel, pedalsteel, weissenborn, and electric guitar through. So far my favorite overdrive combo is the trusty old Blues driver and also the Hotone Grass. Sometimes, just the Blues Driver, and sometimes the two together.
I’ve found that between dialing in the overdrives and then also adjusting the little Fishman AFX Pro EQ pedal, i can get some sounds I like between all the different guitars and their idiosyncrasies. Who knows what I’ll end up with a year from now, but I know I have a few pedals in the gear closet I need to sell that just didn’t blow my kilt up.

[Bruce Roger]

Everyone’s advice really helped me work through this, but it has taken several months to digest. Here’s what I have learned:

I initially bought a used Wampler Ecstasy (aka Euphoria) Overdrive because I could test it out at a local store. It has an adjustable Bass knob that provides more low- and mid-range control than a Tube Screamer.

However, when the Wampler Ecstasy is placed after the volume pedal, on “Smooth” overdrive, it can distort the signal because it is attack-sensitive: Picking harder, or increasing volume, can quickly push it into overdrive. Then chords distort, especially the mid-range notes at third intervals (i.e., the E and C# on the fourth and fifth strings), creating a harsh “woofish” overtone.

I found ways to stop that: 1) mute the attack with the volume pedal; or 2) turn off the compressor that precedes it in the chain. But, eventually I learned to 3) use the more transparent “Open” overdrive to prevent those overtones. That entailed increasing the other knob settings.

Until I found that “Open” overdrive setting, I began to regret not having gotten the Xotic BB Preamp, or one of the other recommended amp pedals that can further adjust EQ — even though I already have a MXR 6-band EQ in the chain.

All of this was eventually resolved when I bought a used Sarno Black Box. It ends up I was seeking that “warm tube” sound as my basic tone, and not really an overdriven amp sound. The irony of this was that when I bought my lap steel three years ago, I had called Brad asking about lessons (we live near each other); at that time he recommended using the Black Box.

I am now beginning to learn that all the overdrive settings interact: it’s not just a simple on or off, or 12 o’clock, setting. This reveals its inherent usefulness as a specialty tone.

So, thanks again to everyone for taking the time to advise me. It’s gradually starting to make sense how all of this works.

[Richard Alderson]

Hey Brooks, looking at the Boss Blues Overdrive, is that a true bypass unit? When its off, it doesn't add anything to the signal?

[Mike Auman]

Hey Brooks, looking at the Boss Blues Overdrive, is that a true bypass unit? When its off, it doesn't add anything to the signal?

The Boss BD-2 Blues Driver is buffered bypass. There's an FET input buffer and a BJT transistor output buffer that are always engaged.

[Phillip Hermans]

I also have a Melbertmaster with George L's and my normal guitar overdrive, Zvex Box or Rock, is not to my taste. I do still use the boost function. Although, that could also be an amp problem ("like an icepick in my brain" as one sound guy described it)

Not an overdrive, but I will say that a germanium FuzzFace works very well with my Melbertmaster! Great for single line stuff...

[Brooks Montgomery]

Thanks Mike!
I found this article helpful for dialing certain tones and amps with the BD-2
https://www.thesoundjunky.com/boss-bd-2 ... al-review/

[Richard Alderson]

Thanks Mike - I will start my own thread to look for some OD with true bypass.

[Bruce Roger]

Picking harder, or increasing volume, can quickly push it into overdrive. Then chords distort, especially the mid-range notes at third intervals (i.e., the E and C# on the fourth and fifth strings), creating a harsh “woofish” overtone.

Last week I heard a pedal designer mention the harmonic information involved in third intervals. Then it became apparent that the reason the major third of the chord distorted predominantly when overdriven was due to its inherent instability compared to a perfect fifth interval.

This relative instability influences not only how we choose our voicings, but also how we tune up and EQ the signal.

Thus it can also determine stylistic conventions — such as the reliance on consonant fifth-based harmony in strident guitar-driven rock music. Is it safe to presume that most overdrive tones are designed to enhance those types of chords?

[ajm]

Richard: Don't get hung up on this true bypass versus buffered bypass versus whatever thing.

There is more to be considered when it comes to effects and putting together an effects chain/pedalboard.

[Greg Forsyth]

Bruce,

I have a Xotic EP booster that does what you're looking for. It thickens the sounds of my lap steel guitars.