4th pedal strings 6 and 10?

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 1 Jun 2023 8:19 pm

I have an S10 E9 with 4 pedals and 4 knees.
It has all the common changes except pedal 4 raises string 6 half step (redundant) and lowers string 10 a whole step B to A. This is the way it came when I bought it.

Is this a common thing? Almost pedal 4 in Uni/B6th tuning mode?

What is a common change to put on pedal 4 other than the Franklin pedal? (it's a push-pull)

Thanks,

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 1 Jun 2023 11:59 pm

Ivan, you'll get various suggestions but bear in mind that you are not obliged to use it at all just because it's there. As time passes you may well discover a use that suits the music you play. (PF invented his change in order to trade licks with piano players.)

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 2 Jun 2023 12:26 am

Curious as to the logic for a previous owner putting that change on.
Anybody seen this change before?

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 2 Jun 2023 3:46 am

I get it. Previous owner fell in love with that big bottom A but couldn't find a way to combine it with the B pedal for some nice voicings, hence the redundant 6th string raise.

That's what I love about 4th pedals, whether a zero pedal or D pedal -- the only proper answer when someone asks 'what is the 4th pedal for on an E9 S-10?' is 'for whatever idea you want to try'.
I lower my low B (on my 12 string Uni) on a lever, so the B pedal is still in play.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 2 Jun 2023 5:29 am

That pedal set up as it is would have some valuable uses in my view, especially if string 9 lowers to C# somewhere on your guitar as I would imagine it does..
Raising 6 to A a semitone while 3 stays at G# is not redundant...
Similarly, some players have an "Isaacs" pedal that raises 5&6 to C# & A respectively which looks pointless maybe at first glance, but yields possibilities beyond the scope of the AB pedals, particularly the maj7 interval available for Amaj7, B13 and so on.
As Jon and Ian have said, use it however you see fit. Personally I raise 6 to A# on zero and it works for me...

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 2 Jun 2023 9:25 am

Perhaps some uses when combined with the 3rd pedal?

~Lee

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 2 Jun 2023 1:33 pm

All great info.
Thanks.

Jon I like you're assessment.
Andrew you're right - it is not redundant! I use it.
And yes Lee it combines with pedal 3 as a set, (like A & B pedals)
I think I've discovered most of it's uses.
Might remove it or hook it up to a make coffee somehow.

So it was probably someones personal change set up idea vs carried over from some tradition?

I used to have a U12 so I'm thinking of doing something with it when playing in B6th mode (with Es lowered). Maybe like pedal 7 on a Uni?

What do you think of that idea?

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 2 Jun 2023 2:34 pm

Mike Sigler had a Sigler Pedal, It raised and lowered some strings and gave him some of the voicing of C6th neck on his S10 flight steel.

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 2 Jun 2023 4:10 pm

I remember reading about the Sigler Pedal.
I think he raised strings 5,6,7 a half and lowered 9 a whole.
Interesting idea but B6th (lowering the Es) would be fine with me - don't need C6th positioning.
Good food for thought thanks Bobby.

Bryce Van Parys · Post by **Bryce Van Parys** » 2 Jun 2023 4:22 pm

I came up with the Sigler change partially on my own, and confirmed by the forum. I use it on P0 to get a C6 change and play my lap steel licks so I can practice them on my fender Deluxe, and transfer them easily to the E9. Works well for me anyway. I wish I could rig up a way to hold the change down, still working on that (Mullen RP)

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 18 Jul 2023 2:53 am

Update: I changed things around so now pedal 4 raises string 6 to A# (like your zero pedal Andrew - thanks for the idea)
I was going for the "pedal 7" Maj7 type change on a Uni (when the Es are lowered) and then realized I only needed the 6th string whole tone raise (not both strings 5 and 6) because combined with pedal 3 I get the 5th string raise whole tone.
So pedal 3 and 4 together raise strings 4,5,& 6 a whole tone. Interesting...

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 18 Jul 2023 2:46 pm

So pedal 3 and 4 together raise strings 4,5,& 6 a whole tone. Interesting...

Ya that's a cool approach as you then have the option of raising that string 6 on its own or with the C pedal, so you now have something similar to both C6 pedal 4 and pedal 7 if you want.

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 18 Jul 2023 3:57 pm

Yeah it’s great having just that one string, one note change on it’s own pedal.

Also - I’m going to change the string 7 raise on LKR to a 1/2 step lower F# to F instead so there’s pedal 5.
(I know I could get the F by raising string 8 (LKL) but I like voicing better lowering string 7 to F and playing it with the lowered string 8 D#)
Pedal 6 is mostly there by letting off the E lowers knee and playing string 9 and not playing 8.
All that’s missing (from the “C6th or B6th” type setup) is pedal 8 and the 5th string 1/2 step lower lever.
I’m tempted to add a vertical knee lever for the 5th sting 1/2 step lower but this is a push-pull so I’d have to add another 1/2 tone tuner for underneath.
I know this has all been done before but I’m having fun re-discovering it.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 18 Jul 2023 6:55 pm

(I know I could get the F by raising string 8 (LKL) but I like voicing better lowering string 7 to F and playing it with the lowered string 8 D#)

yes, lowering string 7 to F natural is a totally different thing than raising 8 a semitone.
Sounds like you're really tapping into the B6 side of the guitar. Have you given any thought to going with S10 E9/B6?

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 18 Jul 2023 7:44 pm

Good question.
Years ago I had a U12 E9/B6 (7x5) but sold it.
Recently I got inspired to get back to the 6th stuff on either an S12 Uni or D10 so I found an early model GFI U12 project that was missing many parts and completely rebuilt it back to 7x5. (Thanks Tyler!)
I've been enjoying re-learning the 6th side of things.
It definitely got me back in the mind-frame of the E9/B6. So I decided to see how far I can get this Emmons SD10 into the B6th side of things but keeping the traditional E9 as the priority (since I have the GFI U12). I think I've reached that edge?

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 19 Jul 2023 8:13 am

Ya that string 9 D is totally crucial for many extended voicings on E9 yet it is also what disrupts the flow of the B6 tuning.

I have opted in the last few years to have D on a lever. Its still there when I need it and allows a ten string set up to extend down to G#. Not for everybody, but it works for me. That said there's some real beauty in the classic E9 set up....

You could spend a lifetime with either approach.
...All roads lead to Rome I suppose

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 19 Jul 2023 3:26 pm

Andrew on your S10 Uni tuning do you pull that low B up to D on a lever similar to the Newman U12 setup?
I had that on the GFI U12 but I removed it because I didn't like that long pull.

I wonder if there's a better way to get the D on the U12? (although it is there on pedal 6) as well as wondering if there's a way to have the D disappear on the S10 when in B6th mode with the E's lowered?

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 19 Jul 2023 5:13 pm

.

This is the setup on the Emmons currently:

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 20 Jul 2023 3:34 pm

yes Ian, my string 9 is tuned to B and I pull it to D on RKL.
I use it a lot - I enjoy how it works with the A pedal that moves that same string up to C#. Lots of good stuff there, esp resolving 5-1 phrases, that isn't possible on standard E9.

Another way to get that D on E9/B6 is to lower string 8 E to D on a lever.
It ends up being more like a pedal 6 voicing..
I haven't explored this approach but I think it would work well, and would free up a pedal at the same time.
With the B pedal down you'd get a pretty full D6, and it would also combine with that F# to F nat lower on st 7 to complete the diminished voicings...

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 22 Jul 2023 12:54 pm

Cool.
I put the B to D pull back on the GFI U12.
I made the pull longer / easier this time.
Seems ok for now. It is nice to have the D there.

The Emmons 10 string setup is still a work in progress but as per the original topic of pedal 4, I am really liking the 6th string pull G# to A#.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 25 Jul 2023 6:59 pm

Yes that G#-A# is a very useful change...

Ian, FWIW here's the E9/B6 tuning I use. Its not a 'universal' tuning at all, but it does cover a lot of ground...
There's a whole side of the tuning centred on F# that opens up when that zero pedal and pedal A are used in combinations with the LK levers.

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Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 30 Jul 2023 3:28 pm

So the Emmons SD10 went into complete restoration mode but when I re-assemble it I will put what was pedal 4 over on pedal zero next to pedal A and have it raise string 6 a whole tone G# to A#. I love it.

As for the GFI U12 - I can't seem to find a good trade off / balance on that long B up to D pull on string 9.
It's either too stiff or too long of a pull.
I guess Jeff Newman either had stronger legs or a long travel on that pull. I'm leaning towards long travel.
Or maybe I can train myself to jump over to pedal 6 when I want that D? No easy solution in sight.
The easiest option I guess is to have no D at all and see if I miss having it...

Edited for update: I tried a few more bell crank & changer hole setting combo's with the 2nd string lower and 9th string raise on the RKR and found the best combination. Sort of a medium throw / medium stiffness.
I think I can live with it now.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 31 Jul 2023 7:19 am

Having the B-D string 9 pull on RKL works best for me.
My E neck of a D10 ultra is set up this way. I also re-jigged a Zum Stage One this way. I play both guitars steadily. That pull is not uncomfortable on either guitar, but I'd imagine having it on RKR would not work quite as well.
I see a lot of uni set ups with that pull on RKR though so it must be possible to get it set up comfortably.

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 31 Jul 2023 2:42 pm

Thanks Andrew.
Good points.
The factory GFI setup has E's on the left like your E9 front neck chart above.
I put the E lowers on RKL because that's how I'm used to it on my other guitars and also holding LKR over while playing pedals 4 - 7 seemed logical but akward. But maybe I'll try in again...

For the B up to D on RKR I had to try every imaginable setting combination until I found the best one. Still you have to kind of hit it hard.
One thing I re-learned is that timing two pulls on one lever or pedal really makes a difference with percieved stiffness. When they start and finish at the exact same time it feels easier with a given leverage setting.

Ivan Funk · Post by **Ivan Funk** » 31 Jul 2023 3:06 pm

Sort of my own topic drift but relates to universal or semi-universal set up ideas:
Here's the latest set up on the U12. I went through and fine tuned / timed all the pulls. The RKR was tricky to time with just a half tone lower on string 2 and that long 1 1/2 tone raise on string 9 but I got it synced nicely. It plays pretty easy/ smooth now.