E lower lever not lowering pitch

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 24 May 2023 8:18 pm

Hi All,

I just bought a Derby SD10 which needs a few adjustments. There is an issue with the 4th string (E) not lowering to D#. It appears the finger is working properly as there is lots of travel. However there does not seem to be much movement where the ball end connects to the finger. I did adjust the lever orientation as my legs are bigger than the previous owner. I am a novice when it comes to adjustments and repair so your advice is appreciated!

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 24 May 2023 8:57 pm

Before you do anything else, take a look at the row of allen screws at the end of the neck. Back off the screw for the 4th string and see if that will let your lower go further. These screws are the boss of all lowers. The finger can't move any further than this screw will let it as it stops the finger.

Do this before you start messing with stops, leverage, etc.

Let us know if that solves your problem or if you need further help.

Derby has what is known as split screws that let you tune a combination of lower and raise. Won't go into that right now, have a source for that info though.

Adjusting your knee lever tilt would not cause this issue unless you moved the lever stop position.
https://steelguitar.com/adjustments.html#

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 25 May 2023 5:05 am

Hi Jerry,

Thank you for the tip, it is much appreciated!
I tried this solution and backed off the screw quite a bit but it did not help.

It seems there is lots of movement in the lower finger, but it does not cause the pin to move much at all.

Here is a picture of the finger with the lever fully engaged.

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 25 May 2023 7:20 am

Could the E-F or E-F# raises be somehow over tuned and are keeping the lower from engaging properly? I would back off both of those tuning nuts just temporarily on your C pedal and your E-F lever and just see what happens.

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 25 May 2023 7:55 am

Hi Mr. Maul,

Thanks for your advise, I did loosen all the other hex screws on that finger as I say this in another thread, however perhaps I will try backing them all the way off!

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 25 May 2023 8:10 am

If the return spring is too tight or the lowering rod is in the position closest to the raise tab the raise finger might be activating resulting in chasing your tail- raising while lowering.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 25 May 2023 8:14 am

Did you look down from the top of the guitar where the pin is and see if there is some obstruction? You can also see whether the finger is clearing that split screw I referenced when you actuate the lever.

Sometimes a broken string ball end will get stuck in the changer and can be hard to find.

Otherwise, you might try loosening up the lever stop referenced in that other link I sent you.

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 25 May 2023 8:40 am

Jim Palenscar wrote:If the return spring is too tight or the lowering rod is in the position closest to the raise tab the raise finger might be activating resulting in chasing your tail- raising while lowering.

Hi Jim,

I am not sure how to tell if the return spring is too tight, it seems to be working normally...

The lowering rod is connected to the bottom position on the finger I believe, this guitar has 3 raise/ 2 lowers on each finger. I will double check when I get home later.

Everyone's help with this is very appreciated!

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 25 May 2023 8:45 am

Jerry Overstreet wrote:Did you look down from the top of the guitar where the pin is and see if there is some obstruction? You can also see whether the finger is clearing that split screw I referenced when you actuate the lever.

Sometimes a broken string ball end will get stuck in the changer and can be hard to find.

Otherwise, you might try loosening up the lever stop referenced in that other link I sent you.

Hi Jerry,

I did try to look for a ball end in there but couldn't see any obstruction. It looks like the finger is clearing the split screw, but I will double check when I get home later.

Also for the lever stop, I have loosened it quite a bit with no result. To me it looks like a problem with the finger, specifically the lower. There are 3 raises on this string which all seem to function normally. The lower seems to have lots of travel but then barely moves the string.

Thanks again, you advise is appreciated!

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 25 May 2023 8:46 am

Is it possible to upload videos to this forum thread? Or maybe I will put it up on youtube with a link, as this might help better diagnose what is happening

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 25 May 2023 8:47 am

The return spring has 2 functions- one is to return the lower scissor to neutral and the other is to keep the lowering scissor in it's neutral position when the raise occurs. If you pull the spring slightly to the side when you lower the string you can observe what the raise scissor is doing when being lowered- it should remain stationary- if it is pulling away from the stop plate that is your problem and an adjustment to the spring or pull rod and/or lubrication may help.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 25 May 2023 9:19 am

Does the 4th string raise properly with the C pedal?

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 25 May 2023 9:22 am

Jon Light wrote:Does the 4th string raise properly with the C pedal?

Hi Jon,

It was working ok, but will check again. I really only had the guitar setup for one night and realized this lowering issue so have it on the bench now trying to fix it!

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 25 May 2023 9:22 am

Jim Palenscar wrote:The return spring has 2 functions- one is to return the lower scissor to neutral and the other is to keep the lowering scissor in it's neutral position when the raise occurs. If you pull the spring slightly to the side when you lower the string you can observe what the raise scissor is doing when being lowered- it should remain stationary- if it is pulling away from the stop plate that is your problem and an adjustment to the spring or pull rod and/or lubrication may help.

Hi Jim,

Will check this and let you know

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 25 May 2023 9:32 am

..so the scissors method involves two parts being attached somewhere in the middle.

It appears the lower half has plenty of travel while the upper half does not. We have to determine what's hindering it's movement.

Elementary, I know, but be sure the string gauge is the proper size for the change you are attempting. Should be somewhere from 13 to 15 ga.

Here is a link to a drawing showing the components and how they interact to which Jim alludes. Derby is a little different all pull system but the effect is the same.

I don't know if it will help track down your issue, but at least you will have some understanding of the system if you don't already.

Ian Worley wrote:
Fred Treece wrote:...the spring attachment hole would only become a pivot point under sone pretty extreme circumstances.
The spring hole is only a point where force is applied in the system, it's never a pivot point. The pivot, or fulcrum, is a point between the two opposing forces. In this case it shifts from the rivet (the intended fulcrum) and the tuning nut (the fulcrum resulting from an imbalance n the system).

It's just a child's teeter-totter. If you placed a boulder on one side of the fulcrum on the teeter-totter (the tuning nut), then added a fat kid on that side ((the over-tensioned spring), the pivot would shift to being the boulder.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 25 May 2023 1:01 pm

Andrew Sneddon wrote:Is it possible to upload videos to this forum thread? Or maybe I will put it up on youtube with a link, as this might help better diagnose what is happening

No video support. Upload to YouTube and post the link. That would help us a lot.

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 25 May 2023 4:12 pm

Perhaps you unintentionally shortened the amount of travel the knee lever has when you adjusted the position of the lever . Was it working properly before you made the change ?

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 26 May 2023 5:02 am

Hi J,

I had thought of that and adjusted the lever stop screw, and it should have lots of travel. It appears the issue is in the finger/ changer. I will upload a video and share a link to help diagnose!

Thanks to you and everyone!!

Jim Kennedy · Post by **Jim Kennedy** » 26 May 2023 5:28 am

The finger may be worn. I have a ShoBud that had the same problem. The pivot point for the fingers is riveted on ShoBuds. The rivet on the 4th string E was worn, and the hole for the rivet was out of round. I went through all the adjustments, same as you are doing. I could not clearly see the issue until I tore the changer down.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 26 May 2023 6:53 am

Another thing I remembered about Derbys is the metal spacer behind the nylon tuners. These can sometimes mushroom from wear, hang on the pull rod threads and interfere with it's movement causing it not to come back to neutral and have tuning problems.

Derby changer scissors are stainless steel...never heard of any issues with excessive wear...anything is possible, of course.

Andrew Sneddon · Post by **Andrew Sneddon** » 27 May 2023 3:45 pm

Hi Guys,

I have uploaded a couple of videos of the lever in action (Or not in action!)

https://youtu.be/RKNAIozCYkU

https://youtu.be/p-grIOjLW50

It appears that when the lower finger activated. It does not make the upper half move enough. There is a slight movement but not enough to lower the pitch.

I have backed off all of the raises on that string but it did not help.

Any thoughts!

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 28 May 2023 6:00 am

Hmmmm, this is weird. At 0:14 in the 2nd vid you can clearly see the changer finger for string 8 moving away from the metal strip attached with screws to the underside and thus lowering the pitch of string 8.

The Changer finger on string 4 should do the exact same thing altho it doesnt seem to be moving much

even if the pullrod is moving the lowering finger plenty enough.

I would loosen string 4 enough to remove the ball end from the changer finger on string 4 and maybe also unhook the return spring on string 4's lowering finger. Then manually check/move the moving parts of string 4's changer mechanism to ensure nothing is stuck or jammed in between the moving parts.

The lowering finger for string 4 seems to be moving more than enough but the part where your string is attached dont seem to follow/mirror the movement of the lowering finger.

The row of split adjusting(lowering limit) tuning screws seems all ok and does not cause the particular problem you are experiencing on your guitar.

Best of luck finding what is preventing the 4th string lowering mechanism from moving the way it is supposed to do.

B.Erlandsen
JCH D10 8+8

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 28 May 2023 6:13 am

The thing that I want to see, that I cannot see in either vid is how the raise finger behaves during the lower action. And how it looks, at rest.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 28 May 2023 12:04 pm

The answer to your problem almost certainly exists in this thread... and we're finally getting closer since you've already checked for obstructions, checked for plenty of free-play, etc.

What does that leave? The problem of a lower-finger moving a lot but the string still not getting all the way down to target pitch is probably caused by the raise finger moving when it's not supposed to.

Jim Palenscar gets the award for pointing it out here first (and in two posts). Jerry Overstreet supplied an excellent diagram and explanation of the mechanics. And Jon Light is directing you as to how to check for this.

In short, an "unwelcome raise" being introduced during a lower is usually caused by either a too-tight return spring, or more likely, the rivet in the middle of the changer needs lubrication. Or as a long shot, the rivet hole is worn out (per Jim Kennedy's suggestion) but that doesn't happen very often.

To verify if the hunch is correct, follow Jon's suggestion: lower the string and watch to see if the raise portion of the changer moves (it should remain completely stationary. If it moves, that's your problem. A slight raise is being introduced, interfering with the lowering action).

Given that this is a new guitar to you as of a few days ago-- and given that you didn't overtighten that return spring -- and given that the prior owner probably didn't either or he would have noticed it messed up his 4th string lower -- the more likely scenario is that the guitar has been sitting unplayed for years and that rivet is gunked up or corroded from disuse. It needs lubrication or degunking because that's the point where the raise- and lower- parts of the scissor meet. Those two scissor parts need to move freely around that rivet. If they don't... you get the problem you're seeing here.

You may need to remove the spring and use a flashlight to be able to see that rivet down in the guts of the changer. See Jerry Overstreet's diagram of the rivet in question (circled in green). You just need one drop on there. Use a straw or a wire coat hanger to direct the lube to that spot and then see where you are.

If that doesn't fix it, loosen the spring. You'll know you've loosened it too much when it's not strong enough to pull a lower back up to pitch when you release the knee lever. Tighten it enough to get back up to pitch, then tighten just a little more to account for future weaking of an aging spring.
.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 28 May 2023 12:15 pm

ShoBuds seemed to have had their share of this problem w the lowering scissor tab wearing into the changer finger- fairly easily fixed but frustrating nonetheless. Barring an obstruction to the lowering scissor or changer finger, I would loosen the string and remove the return spring and simply feel the lowering scissor move. If the raise scissor comes with it I would add lubrication between the two and make sure the other posts don't apply- hanging rivet between the 2, etc. It should be able to be diagnosed in less than 5 minutes.