C6 copedent set up,, which pulls to delete?

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 May 2023 2:31 pm

Setting up a basket case MSA Classic D10 up for a local guitar shop.. Just a pile of dirty unassembled parts really..The guitar is sold and the customer [new player,NO experience] wanted a standard Emmons d10 8 and 4 setup, which has 33 pulls from what I can see in the literature. Problem is, this is an old guitar and there is only enough pull parts for about 28 pulls total on both necks.. I am prioritizing the E9 to have all standard changes.. the store owner doesn't want to spend the extra $125-150 for the pull parts for 5 extra pulls, as it would cut too deeply into what he needs to get out of the guitar.. My "payment" will be store credit, and I am not asking for very much at all.. Just doing a favor. So my question is this- Looking at a standard Emmons setup, which changes are the least desirable, and could be added at a later date, or just not installed at all?... I don't play C6 so I have no conception as to what gets used daily, and what just sits and rarely gets touched.. Remember, this guy, is a total beginner, and most likely will learn E9 first.. Thats what I would do anyway.. any suggestions would be a big help.. He wrote down 17 pulls on the standard Emmons C6 setup, but will probably wind up with 12 to start with. I need to know the "highest priority" changes I guess... bob

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 May 2023 3:07 pm

Check Buddy Emmons’ C6th copedant in the “Tunings” section, and use P5,6,7,8, and RKL. That would be my recommendations for using only 12 pulls.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 May 2023 7:22 pm

I get that Donny, but there must be some that are more important than others.. As I have only ever played E9, I don't know the most essential changes...

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 18 May 2023 11:47 pm

The problem with the C6 is that you can't really go anywhere without the changes Donny lists. BE included nothing superfluous.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 May 2023 2:57 am

Ok, let me try this... A very basic E9 copedent is a total of 8 pulls.. An awful lot of great music has been made using that setup....

If I plan on putting say 2 pulls each on pedals 4 5 6 7 8, and 1 lever, which ones should I use on a very basic C6 tuning using a standard C6 10 string set? Surely there is one or two guys that can recommend a pared down copedent.. An awful lot of great C6 music has been made with no pedals at all. Just looking for a starting point here... bob

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 19 May 2023 3:25 am

I am no C6 expert but an idea MAY be to leave string 10 tuned to the low A instead of C, similar to Chalker’s setup, with no pulls on it and eliminate any pulls on the first string(tuned to D, not G) The C6 pedals would then have only two pulls each.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 19 May 2023 3:33 am

You could have P8 raise string 7 only as it's the most used element of that change. The full boo-wah is a bit niche.

Also P4 is pretty much obsolete, and BE never mentions it in his Basic C6 course. So,

P5 - 2 pulls
P6 - 2 pulls
P7 - 2 pulls
P8 - 1 pull
RKL - 1 pull

Total 8

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 22 May 2023 10:21 am

I have a MSA D10 Classic 1973 vintage in the cradle right now setting it up. I removed and cleaned both changers.
I am trying to put Buddy's tuning on it. All went well till I got to the C6th 10th string. That C to A lower is not wanting to work, Pulls the Raise Lever off the Stop Bar and things go down hill from there.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 22 May 2023 12:31 pm

Im countings 14 rods for the E9 and 13 rods for a full P4-P8 + RKL C6(D on top) with 1 leftover rod to use on RKR for the C6
That = 28 pulls for the whole guitar. If it is a D10 with 6 levers instead of just 4 then there is a shortage of pullrods

B.Erlandsen
JCH D10 8+8

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 23 May 2023 2:43 pm

All depends on what one wants to play.
Country/Western Swing or Jazz, Bebop or even NeoSoul?
Also if mainly single notes or big complex spread-voiced chords or 3 or 4 adjacent string (pick-racked) grips.
Or just use it as an arm rest.

Evidently the available hardware (pedals, levers, cross shafts, bell cranks and pull rods) can be a limiting factor. But then, most can be fabricated.

... J-D.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 23 May 2023 5:21 pm

Bob - I don't consider myself a C6 expert at all, but I'm working on it. Looking at Buddy Emmons' C6 setup here:

IMO, pedals 5, 6 and 7 are absolutely critical, which comes to 7 pulls. If you're going for 12 pulls, I'd add the string 7, 9, and 10 pulls on P8 and both the lever pulls on the right knee (RKL and RKR, C=>B and C=>C#). That gives you 12.

I think P8 is absolutely mandatory for blues or bluesy jazz, at least for me. It mimics the C6/A7 or A6/F#7 tuning I use on non-pedal - gives the cool A7#9 chord for the "Hold It"/Jimi-Hendrix sound, and I would not be without it.

This gets almost every single thing I worked on with Mike Sweeney last year on a C6 bootcamp. Of course, there are lots of other cool changes, but I think the meat and potatoes is right there with what I've suggested.

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 23 May 2023 10:10 pm

Bob, I agree with Dave, the 12 changes he mentioned would be what I would consider the must have C6 changes. If you could put that setup on the C neck and then some sort of basic 8/4 or even better 8/5 on the E neck, the new owner would have a nice set up that would keep him busy for years to come.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 May 2023 1:05 am

On second thought - I think it would be fielder's choice as to whether to put string 3 C=>C# or string 4 A=>Bb on RKR. Note that if you can do split tuning, then that C# note (albeit now with B on string 4 instead of the A root of the P8 change) is available on string 3 via P7+RKL. The A=>Bb change is very useful - again I'm thinking in terms of blues or bluesy-jazz. I mean, if you could add one more change, I'd put 'em both on there.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 24 May 2023 7:53 am

Dave Mudgett wrote:Bob - I don't consider myself a C6 expert at all, but I'm working on it. Looking at Buddy Emmons' C6 setup here:

IMO, pedals 5, 6 and 7 are absolutely critical, which comes to 7 pulls. If you're going for 12 pulls, I'd add the string 7, 9, and 10 pulls on P8 and both the lever pulls on the right knee (RKL and RKR, C=>B and C=>C#). That gives you 12.

I think P8 is absolutely mandatory for blues or bluesy jazz, at least for me. It mimics the C6/A7 or A6/F#7 tuning I use on non-pedal - gives the cool A7#9 chord for the "Hold It"/Jimi-Hendrix sound, and I would not be without it.

This gets almost every single thing I worked on with Mike Sweeney last year on a C6 bootcamp. Of course, there are lots of other cool changes, but I think the meat and potatoes is right there with what I've suggested.

17 Pulls there.
I would say that A-to-G# lower is more important than the raising them as with P6 it creates a minor 9th off the 9th string rooted May7/9th. But that may be personal.

I would also point out that many who had or kept the P4 whole step raise, chose to have it only on the 4th string. So, one could save a pull there.

On the other hand, C to C# raise is a great complement to P8 but -while some moved P8 next to P5 at some time (Jeff Newman advocated it for some time)- being able to raise both C's on the 3'rd AND the 7th string is VERY valuable together with P5 (creating a M6th chord 3 frets from the 7th string rooted one, one string back and thus making the top 5th come out (lost on open M6th by replacing it with the inside-out D).

... J-D.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 May 2023 10:20 am

J D Sauser wrote:17 Pulls there.

Yes, on Buddy's C6 setup, there are 17 pulls. Which is why I eliminated LKL, LKR, P4, and the string 1 D=>D# change on P8, which removes 5 pulls and brings it down to 12 pulls.

Of course, what pulls one considers 'essential' is subject to personal taste and what one wants to play. And I have come to believe that every single change on Buddy's C6 is 'essential' for me. So at that point, it becomes, "Which of the essential changes are the 'least essential' if you have a zero-sum game with just 12 pulls?". Obviously, different people will factor this differently. I totally agree that the A=>Ab change is very useful. I got some parts from Bruce Zumsteg a few years ago to make sure I had all of Buddy's C6 changes on my Zum D10.

Another factor Bob C. no doubt will have to consider is exactly what assortment of pull rods he has for which pedals and levers. Unless he's gonna make some rods, in which case he can put them wherever he wants.

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 24 May 2023 10:22 am

For an absolutely brand new player, can't go wrong with Dave's suggestion above. I'd say P5-8 and C lower to B are now considered "standard", then add one more knee of choice - I personally would raise A to Bb, great for easy 7th chord and melodic passages.

I think for more advanced players the possibilities are interesting to consider. If I played in larger groups where I didn't cover much of the low end, I'd do only pedals 5-7, raise both Cs to C# and do the other 3 knee levers.