Guitar weight

[Richard Lotspeich]

Lets here the builders give their thoughts on guitar weight,,,and tone/sustain. We all want a lighter guitar,,but I think some of the tone and sustain are in the weight.

[Ted Duncan]

A long time ago I had a pair of Hagstroms, REAL solid body guitar and a bass, and I swear these are the heaviest instruments I ever tried to play for hour long sets.

I don't know much about weight and tone and such, but I swear if I had to fight my way out of a bar, I think I'd rather have either one of these in my hands to do it with.

To be serious, matched against similar instruments with similar pickups, I don't think there was much difference.

[J D Sauser]

Weight affects tone as it affects dynamics and sustain.
Evidently, a ton of wet cardboard will sound “different” (in my opinion just guessing wildly, much less atractive) than 10Lbs of really brittle Bakelite or CAST aluminum too.

But lets assume quality sound materials and just the difference of mass:

Imagine we’d put a string on a piece of Balsa wood (NOT a quality sound material, of course),
If it’d held up, when we’d pluck the string, likely we’d also nudge the whole balsa board with the string on away.
Comparedly, if you have a heavy board like a Gibson Console Grande on your laps, plucking the string will hardly move her off your laps.
Strins have mass too. And they vibrate against a much heavier mass (body/cabinet/soundboard). Physics play a role.
Some of the heaviest steels are still considered amongst the best sounding: BIG Consoles, Bigsbys, Rickenbacher B’s (for their relatively small size), Emmons PushPulls…

Now on Pedal Steels, excess TRANSPORTING weight like chunky pedals and racks, heavy steel legs, chunky undercarriage, is all unlikely to affect the tone in the above discussed way… it’s the soundboard’s mass that counts.

Then, possibly in a second degree, sound board material will affect almost as much.
The better response seems to consistetly come from more brittle woods, brittle CAST aluminum (vs. the more pasty billet/extrusiom) and even on Bakelite guitars, purists will want to convince you that the earlier more brittle and brakage prone formula guitars sounded better than the later war-time (WWII) formula models.

One third aspect which doesn’t seem to come up ever, is the necesarry “freedom” of a soundboard to vibrate withou constraints (like from being bolted into one with a metal frame with legs etc), like a LAP steel can.
Most non pedal steels touted as the best soundin ever, are in general LAP steels, able to vibrate freely without conducting the vibrations into the floor via legs.

Constructing a PEDAL steel with a freely vibrating soundboard may seem a headscratcher, but after some comparative tests 2 decades ago, I believe it can and should be done.

Finally, Pedal Steels with levers on them, specially V-levers, need some weight not to wind up thrown around of undecitting into the player’s chin.

… JD

[Ted Duncan]

Now I have not conducted any tests because I wouldn't know how and don't have any equipment to do it with. But I have been watching some YouTube vids on the topic and was especially interested in those made by a young fellow, Jim Lill.

This one was the first I've seen. I guess it was the opening of Mr. Lill playing a guitar having NO neck and NO body that made it seem relative to steel and lap steel guitars and really got my attention.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImce3AE

I would strongly suggest before responding to this particular vid, that anyone interested watch ALL of Mr. Lill's vids on the topic. I have watched them and I think a lot of what he says AND demonstrates make a lot of sense. YMMV. https://www.youtube.com/@JimLill If anyone has issues with his material, please take it up with Mr. Lill.

This topic always seems to end up in arguments, so this will be my last post on the matter.

[J D Sauser]

Now I have not conducted any tests because I wouldn't know how and don't have any equipment to do it with. But I have been watching some YouTube vids on the topic and was especially interested in those made by a young fellow, Jim Lill.

This one was the first I've seen. I guess it was the opening of Mr. Lill playing a guitar having NO neck and NO body that made it seem relative to steel and lap steel guitars and really got my attention.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n02tImce3AE

I would strongly suggest before responding to this particular vid, that anyone interested watch ALL of Mr. Lill's vids on the topic. I have watched them and I think a lot of what he says AND demonstrates make a lot of sense. YMMV. https://www.youtube.com/@JimLill If anyone has issues with his material, please take it up with Mr. Lill.

This topic always seems to end up in arguments, so this will be my last post on the matter.

The tables (lock separated by postst in between them (one you can appreciate behind the player) and to a certain degree, the floor on which the shop tables stand quite heavily ARE the “body” and “neck”. In a physics class this “demonstration” would be laughed out of the laboratory.
Probably heavier than a loaded tripple neck Bigsby!

The most lightweight steels I have seen about 20-some years ago, where made of a carbon fiber tubular web structure by Harmos.




… JD.

[Ted Duncan]

In a physics class this “demonstration” would be laughed out of the laboratory.

… JD.

As I said, I do not have the knowledge or equipment to make these tests. I will NOT discuss them because this is a topic that always ends up in arguments. That said, I watched the vids and they made a lot of sense to me, and, may I say, quite a lot of other people.


Did you watch ALL of Mr. Lills vids as I suggested?

Did you look at the comments on the vids to see if your questions or problems got answered?

If you had a problem with Mr Lill's vids, techniques or vids ... did you take them to Mr Lill as I suggested? I am certain he would like to hear them and just as certain he would be more than happy to discuss this with you.

Mr Lill appears to be honestly looking for answers about tone and sustain in solid body (i.e., NOT acoustic guitars) instruments. He does not seem to be somebody who just wants to argue "because he know's it all" or is an "internet expert".

[J D Sauser]

In a physics class this “demonstration” would be laughed out of the laboratory.

… JD.

As I said, I do not have the knowledge or equipment to make these tests. I will NOT discuss them because this is a topic that always ends up in arguments. That said, I watched the vids and they made a lot of sense to me, and, may I say, quite a lot of other people.


Did you watch ALL of Mr. Lills vids as I suggested?

Did you look at the comments on the vids to see if your questions or problems got answered?

If you had a problem with Mr Lill's vids, techniques or vids ... did you take them to Mr Lill as I suggested? I am certain he would like to hear them and just as certain he would be more than happy to discuss this with you.

Mr Lill appears to be honestly looking for answers about tone and sustain in solid body (i.e., NOT acoustic guitars) instruments. He does not seem to be somebody who just wants to argue "because he know's it all" or is an "internet expert".

I have watched some of his videos. And I find he makes some valid points and experiments. Don’t misunderstand me, he is NOT an idiot. We all make conceptual mistakes, it’s part of experimentation. This one, I’m aftaid it’ “bobkes” as the mass of the tables and the presence of the posts to separate them to a solid scale is being totally ignored within the “no mass” argument.

And it IS worth dicussing, since we are discussing weight/mass.

Thanks!… JD.

[Ted Duncan]

I have watched some of his videos. And I find he makes some valid points and experiments. Don’t misunderstand me, he is NOT an idiot. We all make conceptual mistakes, it’s part of experimentation. This one, I’m afraid it’ “bobkes” (bupkis) as the mass of the tables and the presence of the posts to separate them to a solid scale is being totally ignored within the “no mass” argument.

And it IS worth discussing, since we are discussing weight/mass.

Thanks!… JD.

If Mr Lill has made an error of any kind, I am sure he would appreciate whatever help and advice you can give him. I think we ALL would. He has been working very hard trying to come up with answers about mass and tone and doing it in what seems to be a practical and easy to explain manner.

My only contribution was about my Hags. To me they were VERY heavy (to the point of being uncomfortable) AND they didn't sound much different than other solid body instruments having similar pickups.

Again, I am not qualified, equipped or willing to have this discussion. When picking wood for my lap steel build, I did a bunch of looking (I hesitate to call it "research") into various wood for the project. This young gentleman seemed to make a lot of sense and I am making use of some things he suggested through his examples. Additionally, he also didn't offer "BECAUSE I SAID SO" as a justification for his conclusions. I thought it would be helpful to pass his material on to someone who asked. But I fear I have killed his thread ... so I'll just move along.

[J D Sauser]

I have watched some of his videos. And I find he makes some valid points and experiments. Don’t misunderstand me, he is NOT an idiot. We all make conceptual mistakes, it’s part of experimentation. This one, I’m afraid it’ “bobkes” (bupkis) as the mass of the tables and the presence of the posts to separate them to a solid scale is being totally ignored within the “no mass” argument.

And it IS worth discussing, since we are discussing weight/mass.

Thanks!… JD.

If Mr Lill has made an error of any kind, I am sure he would appreciate whatever help and advice you can give him. I think we ALL would. He has been working very hard trying to come up with answers about mass and tone and doing it in what seems to be a practical and easy to explain manner.

My only contribution was about my Hags. To me they were VERY heavy (to the point of being uncomfortable) AND they didn't sound much different than other solid body instruments having similar pickups.

Again, I am not qualified, equipped or willing to have this discussion. When picking wood for my lap steel build, I did a bunch of looking (I hesitate to call it "research") into various wood for the project. This young gentleman seemed to make a lot of sense and I am making use of some things he suggested through his examples. Additionally, he also didn't offer "BECAUSE I SAID SO" as a justification for his conclusions. I thought it would be helpful to pass his material on to someone who asked. But I fear I have killed his thread ... so I'll just move along.

Ted, I am afraid you are taking this much to seriously and maybe too personal too. It was not my intention to proove YOU wrong or anything.
We are having a discussion and sometimes we have opinions, and there is NOTHING wrong with proposing them to the public. Neither is there anything wrong by responding and arguing a different view point, and even with a little bit of humor.

I don’t think I am the only one who appreciated that you brought in that 3rd party video, after all is IS interesting, because it brought something to think about, analyze and debate.

We all should also not forget that this is a written medium, mostly written in the moment, shot out in an un-edited format, often riddled by audacious grammar, an often fails to reflect 100% what the writer intended to communicate, and most often also is read very superficially and understood in yet a very different way.
In the early times of Internet and Forums and the new ability of touting thing near anonymously now almost 30 years ago, some very simple subjects regularly escalated in name calling, others calling it quits (often repeatedly I might add ) and even death wishes.
I was even once told I should not be allowed to “speak” for not having been born in the USA. It took some strong fist Amendment talk from a few WWII veterans on here to back up my right to say my piece here. I defend that right for others a every turn im my life too.

I feel we and the instrument has GREATLY benefited from this exchange of opinions, ideas and even debates. I remember times when discussing tuning, terms like Just Intonation, Equal Temperament and other tuning methods were fiercely fought out mostly out of near total obscurity of ignorance. But to blood and bone. I believe to remember that our own and dearly missed B0b was one of, if not the very first to suggest that JI was NOT a tuning "temperament" but ET was (which many still called "by 440" or "straight"). My good friend who is 90 now, Carl Dixon was proven "wrong" to his argument that physics dictates ET and JI was just something our ears want to hear. Actually, JI or the tendency to want to hear "sweetened"/beat free intervals is a RESULT of what happens in physics, and the simple proof was "go check your tuner's readings on "harmonics", et voilá, as the French said!"... but it took years and insults and threats and me having to read that my good old friend was being calle "just and old fool" for us to get to the point where now the majority seems to have a better understanding on this subject (and many others after the same mud bath treatment).

Today, it has quieten down a LOT... we have less members, many sadly passed and fewer are emerging. But it's also become more civil as we've learned a lot, not just about steel guitar and music, but on how to handle this ever growing beast called the Internet... tweets, chats, forums and now pretty much everybody having a 10-MegaWatts "virtual" bullhorn... and how little it matters what people say.

So, no ill feelings or personal opinions, Ted... let's just share, analyze and debate and sometimes just agree to disagree.

… JD.

[Ted Duncan]

Ted, I am ...

… JD.

PM out.

T.

[Donny Hinson]

Some of the tone and sustain may be in the weight of a guitar, but I think that it’s far less than most people would believe. Look at straight guitars, does anyone think the Fender Jazzmaster or Jaguar has better tone and sustain than a Telecaster? If they do, it’s a very tiny minority. Yet, the Jazzmaster and Jaguar are both larger and heavier. My D10 MSA Millennium is much lighter (just over 30lbs.) than most D10 guitars, yet I get many compliments on the tone and sustain. Even Boo Miller, a dyed-in-the-will Emmons’ fan, told me once it was one of the best sounding guitars he heard when I played it at a local steel jam. The sound is the sum of the parts, and how they’re put together, combined with the talent of the player.

I think a D10 can be lightened considerably from guitars of old without losing tone and sustain, if proper materials are used, and if the design is right. Sustain can be measured, but tone is a personal thing. I know that the Emmons “Black Album” sound is the benchmark for an awful lot of players, but do you notice that almost none of the pros today strive for that tone? It’s a conundrum that pedal steels these days sound more full and .”round”, less cutting and bright, while the guitar tones are way sharper and cutting than they used to be.

Luckily, most modern pedal guitars are lighter than the older ones. And if yours still needs to lose weight, consider lightweight legs, and a lightweight case and accessories.

[J D Sauser]

Some of the tone and sustain may be in the weight of a guitar, but I think that it’s far less than most people would believe. Look at straight guitars, does anyone think the Fender Jazzmaster or Jaguar has better tone and sustain than a Telecaster? If they do, it’s a very tiny minority. Yet, the Jazzmaster and Jaguar are both larger and heavier. My D10 MSA Millennium is much lighter (just over 30lbs.) than most D10 guitars, yet I get many compliments on the tone and sustain. Even Boo Miller, a dyed-in-the-will Emmons’ fan, told me once it was one of the best sounding guitars he heard when I played it at a local steel jam. The sound is the sum of the parts, and how they’re put together, combined with the talent of the player.

I think a D10 can be lightened considerably from guitars of old without losing tone and sustain, if proper materials are used, and if the design is right. Sustain can be measured, but tone is a personal thing. I know that the Emmons “Black Album” sound is the benchmark for an awful lot of players, but do you notice that almost none of the pros today strive for that tone? It’s a conundrum that pedal steels these days sound more full and .”round”, less cutting and bright, while the guitar tones are way sharper and cutting than they used to be.

Luckily, most modern pedal guitars are lighter than the older ones. And if yours still needs to lose weight, consider lightweight legs, and a lightweight case and accessories.

“Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beholder”

Does it sound “better”?
Does a hollow body Jazz Guitar with flat wound strings sound like an idea worth while entertaining for a new Pedal Steel Guitar?
Which sounds “better”, a heavy LesPaul or a light TeleCaster?

To each instrument and application, it’s own, I would say.

Im MOST cases, I would say that the desired “parameters” for a Steel Guitar are pretty much the same, with SUSTAIN being the predominant one.
Yes there have been exceptions: Jerry Byrd liked to keep his plain strings on to the point of going black and “dead”… some of the 60’s and early 70’s Bb6th Jazz Pedal Steelers have had a period of “dead” strings, with less emphasys on sustain with a dark sound reminiscent of hollow Jazz Guitars too. But that was a small group and they themselves grew tired of it eventually.

I feel the best platform comes from BRITTLE, strong material with enough mass to stay “put”, so the strings can vibrate against that soundboard without loosing energy into making the soundboard vibrate. There is a concept based on the laws of physics relative to inertia and acceleration and evidently mass ratio (string mass vs. sound board mass).
It is my experience that sound board materials affect the sound or tone character of electric/amplified instruments as much as on accoustic ones.

… JD.