3D Printed Roller Nut Bridge for Palm Pedals continuation

[George Piburn]

Thanks to the moderator for adding a sticky for file sharing.

GeorgeBoards™ created a palm pedal system that is 3D printed with a small amount of easy to find hardware.

We made the executive decision to Not Sell These. After dscussion we decided to share these files here if it turns out that people want to have them.

I want to open this thread up to discuss the topic of 3D printed lap steel guitar parts before we post any files in the sticky area.
What it takes to get into it - various equipment and materials levels of engineering - blah yadda.

It is a fascinating desktop additive manufacturing process and can be a lot of fun
plus not that expensive to play around with to see if you want to make larger investments for bigger badder gooder.

I will start it off with photos of the bender system. We can talk about what went into each smaller piece and the overall palm bender.

[Les Ford]

Did you make these up in Fusion 360?

[George Piburn]

Yes - I design on the proverbial cocktail napkin and Mrs.Boards does all of the engineering in Fusion 360 and slices it with Cura.

The photos here are after several prints and up grades in design.

[John Hyland]

They look good.
What polymer did you use to print these and why did you choose that particular plastic.

For disclosure I have made a working pedal steel using 3d printed parts

[George Piburn]

John, I've seen a few of your photos , and everything looks great on your pedal units.

We use Tough PLA (polylactic acid)- it prints nice is very rugged and doesn't tend to clog up the hot tips too often and is ultimately biodegradable unlike ABS.

To get more durable we suggest moving up to Nylon with Carbon fiber - or other stiff additives.

For those folks looking to get into carbon fiber type filaments it is best to have a printer with dual gears in the extruder portion.
Some of the other uses of the carbon types are Skate board wheels and housings, a lot of these new flying drones.

[John Hyland]

Hi George I prototype in PLA with finals in carbon fibre polycarbonate and nylon.
For reference I use a Prusa mk3
PLA is surprisingly strong but as finished produce it is a bit heat sensitive. Of course most musical instrument bits are heat sensitive so I’m probably being over cautious.
Regarding nylon it is strong but it’s bending resistance isn’t so high

[Fred]

George,
Is the part tapped for the stop screws or have you put in some kind of threaded insert?

[George Piburn]

Fred , for those who do not know, a 3D printer can print a threaded tube.

We us 10/32 thread count - you can simply screw them in , but in my personal case I run a 10/32 tap to clean out any bits to make the overall more smooth. No need for a nut as these are really nice and hold.

If you look closely we did create a 10/32 nut insert for the lever arm on the rocker part. These levers get moved to and fro and can loosen up. The nut makes it so the operator can crank down and not strip out other wise printed threads.

No need for nuts-inserts for the stop screws as they tend to not need continuous adjustment.

[Alan Brookes]

These look interesting. There's so much that can be done nowadays with 3D printing once one has got the knack of designing with CAD, (which I haven't).
What I would imagine could easily be made are the mechanism covers for Harlin MultiKords. They were all made in a very brittle see-through plastic, which shatters over time, so you very rarely see them with intact covers. But today's plastics would last for ever.

[George Piburn]

Hello Alan , glad to hear your E-Voice.

3D printing can be a lot of fun on all sorts of levels.

Printing one of those curved covers for a Harlin or Gibson, is possible , but would only be utilitarian at best. Visually they would be very ugly by comparison.

10 years or more ago when I was in OKC , I was doing a lot of designing at an old school plastics place that had the ability to make very nice curved plastics on their high end vacuforms. We discussed this very idea, he actually owns a Harlin.

We at GeorgeBoards™ only invest into items we can continue to sell after the prototypes are designed and brought to fruition. I've had 1 or 2 requests for these in over 25 years.

Same thing happened with the Ricky Panda crowd, Denny Turner in Oahu got me going on making aftermarket raised panels quite a few years back. I had the whole thing lined up to have a sophisticated waffle maker to produce them. The problem with the Ricky owners is - was they are not willing to lift a single finger to help. No one would send me a set of panels or an entire bakeolight to reverse engineer the parts. When no one else cares - why should I?

So far no one has an interest in these palm pedals - or why they are superior to all others for fraction of the cost. Hence , no interest in sharing the build files for free on the forum.

Glad to talk 3D printing though, please keep the question coming.

Best Regards

GeorgeBoards

[Daniel Dysinger]

Hi George, I am new to the forum and am very interested in these palm pedals! My son has a very nice 3D printing setup and a variety of print media to work with. What height bridge would your design work best with?

[George Piburn]

Hello from George Boards

1/2" tall is what we use.

I am currently inventing a new roller nut and bridge system, it has the smoothest fastest slipperiest rollers currently available.

If you would like to have me discuss this subject of 3D printed benders further, I would like some information if I may.

3D Printer Brand and Model to start with.

[Daniel Dysinger]

Sure, no problem. He has a Prusa model MK3S+

The new nut and bridge system sounds pretty cool. Does it use something other than guitar string ends for the rollers? I think finding some small roller bearing with a groove in it would be pretty slick.

[George Piburn]

Daniel,

The prusa is a good starting place, not certain how those handle Fiber infused Nylon material,

I made what you see in the photos in Tough PLA --
to make something like a bender that has all sorts of stress continually applied, at minimum a material like Nylon X -G or Onyx will give more strength and durability. To do more than experiment a stronger printer is a must have, Ultimaker - Banana - and others -- all in the multi thousand dollar range.

About my roller systems, we currently make and have in stock, some variations of the String Ball eydeer.
We have a generic nut and bridge system.


This is a roller nut specifically for the 5700 Gretsch laps.



Now for what you are waiting for!







As we all want, Miniature Roller Bearings - 3D printed Tires with Graduated Notches to help with fatter to narrower string gauges. The notches all have a slight roundness to the area where the strings Seat, giving greater contact.

The Roller bearing as one would hope are infinitely more slick slippery - faster - accurate Return to pitch after a bend than any pure Friction concept.
Same goes with our benders - double bearings in each pedal mechanism.

OK all of this is fine and well, But -- how to ground the strings?
No worries , I printed the Bridge unit and the Tires back there in a Space Age High Tech Conductive Polymer so it will ground from anywhere on the Bridge same a conventional metal bridge.
The Nut end is standard Tough PLA.

Both of these polymers, are BioDegradable - if they ever make it to a land fill it will go back to nature , unlike many of the other filaments used in 3 D printing.

[Daniel Dysinger]

That looks pretty slick George! Are these still in the prototype stage or will you be selling them soon?

My son said he has not tried printing Nylon, but we might buy a roll and see how it handles it.

How about the tone of 3d printed guitar parts? How does it compare to wood and metal? Particularly when used as a bearing surface for the strings?

[John Hyland]

The Prusa m3 will print Nylon and more. The only issue is getting the right removable print bed sheet so the nylon sticks. There are workarounds but the nylon sheet made by Prusa works perfectly.

The tone of my printed pedal steel is excellent with all contact surfaces 3d printed.. I believe the only issue would be long term wear.

Also regarding grounding the strings as the string must be attached to something other than the rollers I don’t see a problem. I defer to George’s experience with the conductive polymer but my feeling is that that products conductivity's is not significant. That said I would be keen to know what polymer is being used and how well it might work for shielding electronics.

My understanding is that PLA will only biodegrade when treated with appropriate solutions and in a land fill might be around for a while. That said it does have benefits. https://3dinsider.com/is-pla-biodegradable/

[George Piburn]

https://youtu.be/lQP7NmsIyMI?si=JK8wKzoIDRE1NKjz

Here is a video

Daniel,
I currently have 4 sets of Nut and Bridge I am glad to sell to anyone.
Tone = great , Tough PLA is very tone friendly and lots of sustain, --watch Video.

John,
Watch Video for demonstration of the Conductivity. For a ground - no worries,
for a faraday shield I recommend going with everything you can get - copper - aluminum - conductive paint- nickel paint.

Durability is yet to be determined.

[Daniel Dysinger]

Thanks for posting the video George. That tone does sound good.

I was browsing that Jungle website and found these little U groove bearings. I wonder how they would work with a PLA or the conductive base material.

They wouldn't be graduated like your design to keep the tops of the strings level, but I suppose a guy could design the axle to sit at a slight angle.

https://www.amazon.com/Kozelo-10pcs-Gro ... 0C6QR97BN/

[J D Sauser]

https://www.amazon.com/Kozelo-10pcs-Gro ... 46&sr=8-37

Those are "u"-grooved bearings with a quite pronounced "bottom" in which most thinner strings could move... I think that for strings, one would prefer "V"-groved bearings:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=MINIATURE+v+GROOVE+BEARING


... J-D.

[George Piburn]

I took Mr. Sauser's idea out to Fruition.

We got some Deep V Groove Hardened Steel Roller Bearings , and modified our 3D printed part to accommodate.

The axel is beefed up to 3mm from 2mm we eliminated the conductive all together, no need now.

The Bridge still has the little hole to bring up a ground wire from below- if you prefer you can ground to a metal bender system and it will back feed to the strings that way.

We made two versions , 1- covered over style, 2- open style. The open style has the axel slightly covered on top to prevent drop out. You still slip the axel in through either end.

[J D Sauser]

I took Mr. Sauser's idea out to Fruition.

We got some Deep V Groove Hardened Steel Roller Bearings , and modified our 3D printed part to accommodate.

The axel is beefed up to 3mm from 2mm we eliminated the conductive all together, no need now.

The Bridge still has the little hole to bring up a ground wire from below- if you prefer you can ground to a metal bender system and it will back feed to the strings that way.

We made two versions , 1- covered over style, 2- open style. The open style has the axel slightly covered on top to prevent drop out. You still slip the axel in through either end.

So, it’s “Mr. Sauser” now, huh?
… I am fully aware of the fact that I have been annoying folks on this Forum for pretty much a 1/4 Century by now… Ha! But it’s still just “J-D”

Good job by the way! All looks very clean, very “factory”.

I am not sure what to think of 3D print material for sound related parts. I like hard and brittle. It should tend to transport vibrations with as little loss than “soaking” it up for bein too soft. That’s why I object to billet/aluminum over cast.

Several builders have started to use micro-ball bearings here and there since they became so ridiculously afordabe, yet there are NO hi rpm parts anywhere on a steel guitar, wgich is what ball bearings are designed for. We see them on cross shafts, changer parts, etc… all parts which won’t even perform a single whole rotation, ever. But I don’t think their use in “our” application is detrimental, esoecially now that one can buy a v-grooved roller for less of the cost of having a plan nut roller made.

… JD (<- it says it rite there! )

[John Hyland]

JD
There are all types of plastics and the very hard and brittle ones transmit sound well. These are the poly lactic acids (PLA) and the poly carbonates. That said I’m not sure you will get the ridiculous trebles which the old school country scene like and from what I read here is changing, but I am pleasantly surprised by the sustain and clarity of my 3d printed/alum frame PSG. Possibly not relevant but it also has a floating curved soundboard shell.

Also I must check out the v bearings to see if this changes the tone as I’m current using printed wheels.

[J D Sauser]

JD
There are all types of plastics and the very hard and brittle ones transmit sound well. These are the poly lactic acids (PLA) and the poly carbonates. That said I’m not sure you will get the ridiculous trebles which the old school country scene like and from what I read here is changing, but I am pleasantly surprised by the sustain and clarity of my 3d printed/alum frame PSG. Possibly not relevant but it also has a floating curved soundboard shell.

Also I must check out the v bearings to see if this changes the tone as I’m current using printed wheels.

INTERESTING steel.
You printed the FRAME too?? Your printer must be huge!

... J-D.

[John Hyland]

JD
the main frame is aluminium but pretty much the rest is printed. The printer is not large and in any event it wouldn't be stiff enough. By using sheets of carbon fibre and the veneer itself I was able to sandwich a printed core of smaller lengths. The arched panel is quite stiff enough to span end to end.




Next step is to make "finished" one instead of a prototype

[J D Sauser]

JD
the main frame is aluminium but pretty much the rest is printed. The printer is not large and in any event it wouldn't be stiff enough. By using sheets of carbon fibre and the veneer itself I was able to sandwich a printed core of smaller lengths. The arched panel is quite stiff enough to span end to end.




Next step is to make "finished" one instead of a prototype

I can't tell you how your guitar's sound board's shape resembles mine. Neck and soundboard integrated, thus more wood thickness.

I like your cross-shafts, I assume quick-lock-in bell cranks?

I think you and I should get to know each others... J-D.