Is it D# or Eb for E9th Tuning???

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 20 Dec 2006 1:37 pm

Just a little dose of reality from outside the steel world for y'all. The guitarist I work with, a monster in jazz and country who at age 29 knows more theory than I will ever assimilate in my life, saw this thread this past weekend and asked me:

"E flat or D sharp? Is this what you guys argue about?"

I told him the next discussion will be about "how many angels can dance on the tip of a fingerpick."

BTW, I agree with Paul and David. If you're talking the key of E, it's D#. If not, it's whatever you want it to be.

BTW #2, if a guy on the bandstand calls out "play this one in D#," you can tell him "there ain't no such key as D#. But I'll bet E flat works just as good."

(There is a D# minor key, though... the relative minor of F# major. But the unused non-keys are A#, D#, G#, Cb, Db minor, and Gb minor. Too many double accidentals in these non-keys to make it worth writing out.)

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 20 December 2006 at 01:40 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 20 Dec 2006 1:39 pm

Bob Lee and all, The melodic minor scale originated in early counterpoint. The notes were raised or lowered depending on there harmonic function. It wasn't a jazz chord thing. It was more of cadential formula based on the church rule that nothing could end in minor. The 5 chord comes right before the final 1 chord. The 5 chord needs to be major so the leading tone can move a half step to its final destination. That gives you the (jazz terminology) major 7th when acending in your minor mode.

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Bob
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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Dec 2006 4:36 pm

So, you're saying that it would sound wrong in that music to go down from a 5 chord to a 1m through the major7 note? Seems to me that, if you're on the 5 chord you would always raise the 7th tone of the minor scale, whether the melody was ascending or descending. Consider this:
<pre>chord: Cm G7
notes: G Ab Bb C D (ascending)

chord: G7 Cm
notes: D C B A G (descending) </pre> That seems right to me, but it's the opposite of what the "rule" would dictate:
<pre>chord: Cm G7
notes: G A B C D (ascending)

chord: G7 Cm
notes: D C Bb Ab G (descending) </pre>

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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[This message was edited by b0b on 20 December 2006 at 04:39 PM.][This message was edited by b0b on 20 December 2006 at 04:40 PM.]

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 20 Dec 2006 7:08 pm

Bob & Bob, both of the examples could be interpreted to sound both correct and/or incorrect - depending on the scalar Mode that the song has been orchestrated to be in. The differences (in the examples) would have to be further differentiated as to whether they are part of an ascending /descending rule or not, or as notes defining the mode (there being several minor modes), once that has been factored in, then you could perhaps re-ask the question... not to mention that the melody could at any time jump to a different mode than the songs overall mode etc.[This message was edited by C. Christofferson on 20 December 2006 at 07:23 PM.]

Brandon Ordoyne · Post by **Brandon Ordoyne** » 20 Dec 2006 8:00 pm

You know guys a yes or no answer would have worked for me. I am new to PSG. I did not realize this was a touchy subject...hahaha

It is interesting how much theory is behind this instrument!

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Thanks!
Brandon Ordoyne
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Carter-Starter
Peavy Blazer 158

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 20 Dec 2006 8:16 pm

Srry Brandon youre right. How are you liking your Carter ? At the moment i would be happy to upgrade to that guitar.

Brandon Ordoyne · Post by **Brandon Ordoyne** » 20 Dec 2006 8:22 pm

Well I am enjoying my Carter Starter. I dont think you want to upgrade to it, it is a beginnner guitar. It works great for me, even though I dont know much on it, plus its the only one I have ever played

I start lessons on Jan 2nd.

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Thanks!
Brandon Ordoyne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Carter-Starter
Peavy Blazer 158

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Dec 2006 9:15 pm

You know guys a yes or no answer would have worked for me.

And you got it--in the second reply, from Alan Brookes! (quoted in full):

Yes!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 Dec 2006 10:42 pm

I think the acending and decending rule has less to do with scales,
and more to do with voice leading in harmonization.

Notes tend to fall or rise to their next chord,
.
So like a blue note in a blues or jazz;
You bend up to some notes and bend down to others.
In classical on organ or harpsichord,
there was no bending,
so they 'sometimes' alternated the grace notes.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 20 Dec 2006 11:41 pm

Back when the church made the rules for western music it had little to do with how it sounded. There were just some goofy rules( voice leading/cadential formula stuff ) composers had to go by or they would be slowly impaled by perverted monks. It had nothing to do with vertical harmony as we think of it. There wasn't anything called chords at the time.

Common practice issues came later with the minor modes and the melodic minor still had practical application.

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Bob
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David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Dec 2006 9:42 pm

Woe's be he who played a tri-tone back then.

The devil's chord and a burnable offence.

Nobody had showed how it could easily be
used as a passing chord, diminished or minor7b5
it was listened to alone and out of it's context
and sounded demonic to some.

It was also too heard to sing for the masses,
and several dukes and bishops.

Now most american car horns use this alone,
because it cuts through most background noise.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 December 2006 at 09:44 PM.]