Is it D# or Eb for E9th Tuning???

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Dec 2006 10:23 pm

You can't play in the flat keys on the open strings of the E9th. It will sound out of tune. It does on my guitar, anyway.

Dare I raise its ugly head, but if the guitar was tuned ET, this would not be an issue. Guitar players have played on open strings for a very long time.

BTW, that's not advocacy for or against ET.

Really, I'm not against the convention to analyze the open string pedal and lever changes in the context of the E scale. The only issue I have is to, essentially, call anybody who doesn't ignorant of the "truth".

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everybody.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 14 December 2006 at 10:24 PM.]

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 14 Dec 2006 11:12 pm

<edit>[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 18 December 2006 at 09:29 PM.]

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 15 Dec 2006 2:12 am

A lot of PSG players think like that... if a knee lever lowers a note, that note is a flat...

Thinking that, a descending scale means the note are flat and an ascending scale means the notes are sharp, is like driving down a hill and saying your heading South then driving up hill and thinking your heading North.
It doesn't work like that.

Your only going to have flats in a scale with flats, like F, Bb, Eb, Ab, and so on. If your in keys with sharps like G, A, B, D, AND E then the notes are marked as sharps.

I look at a E9 tuning more as parts of an E major scale than a chord. With an E major scale the 7th tone is a D#. In fact the second open string on a ten string is a D#.

Or are you guys tuning that string to Eb?

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 15 Dec 2006 2:30 am

A lot of PSG players think like that... if a knee lever lowers a note, that note is a flat…

Thinking that... is like driving down a hill and saying your heading South then driving up hill and thinking your heading North.

Exactly, Alvin. That’s an excellent analogy!

Why didn’t I think of that?

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John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 15 Dec 2006 4:25 am

. [This message was edited by John McGann on 15 December 2006 at 04:38 AM.][This message was edited by John McGann on 15 December 2006 at 04:42 AM.]

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 15 Dec 2006 5:51 am

Look at the map...

"Hmm take the red road and go towards the crease turn left and then go the the blue road and turn ...up!"

Reading a map is hard to understand too

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 15 Dec 2006 6:33 am

This thread actually makes me proud to be a steel guitarist! Lead guitar has always been my "main" instrument but I've found the vast majority of 'em to be musically illiterate compared to steel players! That's a fact. One of my favorite things is setting in with other bands. When asked to do an instrumental I usually think of something they might know so I'll say "Steel Guitar Rag, key of Fb" or "Sleepwalk, key of B#". You'd be surprised how many "good" guitarists actually start counting their frets or stand there with a dazed look on their faces. To confess something, before I took up steel, I'd have probably been one of them as my theory was minimal, mostly because I didn't need it. I've found that I can talk steel guitar with a relative newcomer or an old pro and to a man (or woman) they're usually pretty good with musical theory. I think a good bit of this has to do with things like the organizations, the Forum, etc. I just can't find any guitar organizatons which delve into it like the steel guitar world does. Any time I need a little help with a mechanical issue, a lick, whatever, for the steel guitar, it's only a mouse click away..........JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 15 Dec 2006 7:28 am

I think I know now why, Lloyd Greene dosn't lower his 4th. string.

Joe www.willowcreekband.com [This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 15 December 2006 at 07:33 AM.]

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 15 Dec 2006 8:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what would we call that rose if we lowered it on a knee lever?

This sort of silly argument that we've got going on here is one of the things that used to drive me insane at "that school". Sure the correct note name is D#, but does that really matter in the context of the music?

(...and I mean the music that we experience with our ears, not the music that we write down...)

It's really easy to get bogged down in the nomenclature (or however you spell that) and miss out on the actual music. (...don't get me wrong, I am a theory geek.)

After all this time, you'd think that someone would finally prove that music is a fact and not just a theory. bing! pow!

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 15 Dec 2006 8:51 am

This sort of silly argument that we've got going on here is one of the things that used to drive me insane at "that school". Sure the correct note name is D#, but does that really matter in the context of the music?

YES it does matter, if you read the original question that started the thread. A beginner, trying to learn how to play music, was confused because one book said to lower to an Eb while another said to lower to a D#.

With instruction and published tuning manuals they should all strive to be consistent and correct. As not to confuse and/or discourage beginners.

As for someone who already plays and knows the instrument, then you can call it anything you want.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Dec 2006 9:50 am

If we were really strict with the key signature conventions as in written music, we would call the E-to-F lever the "F natural lever," since F is an accidental in the key of E. So maybe it's no big deal to loosen up the key signature analogy for writing out copedants a little. If you are only interested in the mechanical function of each change, then using flats for lowers and sharps for raises makes some sense. But I think it retards a beginner's growth a little not to use the key signature conventions in instructional material. When I first took up pedal steel, I was not familiar with the notes of the E scale. So I transposed copedants into the key of C, so I could understand the scale and chord functions of the strings and changes. After looking at E9 copedants (labelled according to the key signature) over and over here on the Forum, I eventually became familiar with the E scale. So now I recognize F# G# C# and D# as the 2, 3, 6 and 7 of the scale. Mislabelling those as flats would have interfered with this learning process for me.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 15 December 2006 at 09:52 AM.]

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 15 Dec 2006 10:06 am

YES it does matter, if you read the original question that started the thread.

Of course, you are correct Alvin. His question was a theory question in the first place.

What I think is funny is that there are 3 going on 4 pages of goofballistics following a question that was answered (for practical consideration) in first couple posts!

(btw, I really liked the uphill/downhill analogy...very nice

)

To self, in a disgusted tone of voice: "Why am I typing this? I should be practicing."

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 15 Dec 2006 11:01 am

more goofballistics...

I agree that PSG manuals and chord charts should be musically correct and standardized. This instrument is hard enough to learn as is. We need to speak the same language as the rest of the musical world. We like to create our own musical terms… like copedant to describe a Tuning Chart. No one else in the world knows what a copedant is. And we have our boo-wah pedal (lower C to A) on the C6 tuning. This kind of jargon separates us from the rest of the musical world.
And of course, our copedants prove that our knee levers create flats when they lower

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my amp goes to 11. Most guys play with their amps on 10. You’re on 10, all the way up, all the way up...Where can you go from there? Nowhere. What we do, is if we need that extra push over the cliff... 11. One louder.

"Why don’t you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number, and make that a little louder?"

(after taking a moment to let this sink in): "These go to 11."

it’s all in the nomenclature!

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My Site - Instruction

[This message was edited by Doug Beaumier on 15 December 2006 at 11:09 AM.]

Max W. Thompson · Post by **Max W. Thompson** » 15 Dec 2006 12:54 pm

I'm going to tune my psg to Fb9 and avoid the whole problem...[This message was edited by Max W. Thompson on 15 December 2006 at 12:55 PM.]

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 15 Dec 2006 1:54 pm

It must be Steel guitar players are smarter than that Cave man on TV. I do believe that some steel player invented the wheel. If you don't C# you are going to Bb .I've got to start getting ready,I have a playing job tonight. But I will ask our dummer what is right Eb or D#. This post is going effect my playing, I will be thinking about it all night. Joe
the one and only

Willowcreekband.com[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 15 December 2006 at 01:57 PM.][This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 15 December 2006 at 01:58 PM.][This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 15 December 2006 at 02:00 PM.]

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 15 Dec 2006 3:35 pm

On a side note: The 'jazz harmonic' scale (for lack of remembering its real name without looking it up) is played with different scale tones depending on whether you are ascending or descending the scale; one of the notes being sharpened or flattenend depending on the direction. > watch for my first steel song on u-tbe in a few days. Thx Brandon O 4 the cheap plug space.

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 15 Dec 2006 5:19 pm

The harmonic minor scale raises the seventh note of the scale by one half step, whether you are going up or down the scale.

Harmonies in minor keys often use this raised seventh tone in order to make the music feel more strongly centered on the tonic.

In the melodic minor scale, the sixth and seventh notes of the scale are each raised by one half step when going up the scale, but return to the natural minor when going down the scale.

Melodies in minor keys often use this particular pattern of accidentals, so instrumentalists find it useful to practice melodic minor scales.

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Tim Harr
Carter D-10 8p/9k, Webb 6-14E Amplifier, BOSS RV-3, Nash 112, Fender BF Twin Reverb

[This message was edited by Tim Harr on 15 December 2006 at 05:21 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 15 Dec 2006 5:26 pm

In an E9 tuning, raising the root E a semitone to make the 3rd of a VI or VI7 chord, makes an E#, not an F.

This is an interesting point. The basis for the conclusion that the 2nd string note should be called a D# rather than an Eb is that the tuning is E chord based. Can't argue with that reasoning. HOWEVER, since at least one fundamental use of the F lever is to convert a big piece of the tuning to a C# chord based tuning, one could argue that, based on the same logic, the note should be called E#. For example, if we moved up one fret, the note would definitely be called F# since it's the 3rd on the D chord. So why isn't it called E# at the open position? Probably because it is too much of a pain to deal with, which I agree with. But therefore, if it's ok to call the note F instead on E#, why is it not ok to call the 2nd string Eb, rather than D#? Hmmm...

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Jeff's Jazz

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 16 Dec 2006 7:49 am

There ain't no F in E9.
(It all depends on how you say it.

)

Bill Duve · Post by **Bill Duve** » 16 Dec 2006 3:21 pm

This reminds me of a funny

When I first started I had to rig my own rods and tuning before I could play, I was told for the time to use the one knee to "PULL" the E's to Eb and I dang near diddr boy, came within ten cents before the fingers hit the body, I think thats when I asked "How flat is flat"

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Dec 2006 3:40 pm

Tim Harr wrote

In the melodic minor scale, the sixth and seventh notes of the scale are each raised by one half step when going up the scale, but return to the natural minor when going down the scale.

That's only true half the time, though, in real melodies.

There's a chapter in the book "Lies My Music Teacher Told Me" about that: 
<blockquote> Lie #9: There are three minor scales: natural, harmonic and melodic.

Truth: Chromatic adjustments can be made in the minor mode, according to harmonic context, to accomodate the step-and-a-half between scale steps b6 and 7. </blockquote> If you play in minor keys much at all, you learn after a while that the scale always changes when you go to the V chord. It really has nothing to do with whether the melody is going up or down.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog 

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 16 December 2006 at 03:41 PM.]

Tim Harr · Post by **Tim Harr** » 16 Dec 2006 8:29 pm

b0b,

Well put. I am no familliar with this book. I will scope itout.

As for the scales.. I learned them in all 12 keys using about 6 different guitar fingerings each.

We both know that the rudimentary process of learning scales to learn them is one thing and applying scales to improvisation and melody is somewhat different. I love playing in minor keys.

You make a valid point.

Merry Christmas to you and your family

Tim

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Dec 2006 10:00 pm

Here's a link to it, Tim: http://www.stage3music.com/lies/lies.html

It's one of my favorite music theory books.

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 17 Dec 2006 10:30 am

I studied the Eddie Alkire tuning,when I started playing steel in 1954 ( the E-Harp tuning).Eddie Alkire called the 8th. string tuned to F,a E# in his tuning literature. He is in the SGHOF, he was a great non pedal steel player and a professor of the steel guitar. Joe

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 17 Dec 2006 1:07 pm

More theory.

Both necks were named before the tunings evolved into our present day standard. To me, each neck is more like a series of intervals than a chord.

I personally don't view any tuning as a key signature. If I were to think of the E9th as a chord I would think of it more as an A tuning with a b5 and an 11 while holding the basic pedals down. Its easier to see single note passages viewed as a 6th based tuning.

Here's a theory problem with the name, when we say E9th, which type of ninth chord is it? A dominant 9th because of the D note or is it a major ninth because of the D#?

The C6th has an F note or 11th and the D note on top makes it a 9th. Would the real name for the tuning be C6911? Its not a 13th because there is no b7.

Paul