Double Ten AND 12 String universal

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 1 Mar 2023 7:06 am

Is there anybody out there who regularly plays Double 10 AND also a universal 12? For example, you prefer a double ten, and so you play one at home, but for gigging they are heavy, and so you play a universal at gigs.

I know that for the universal you lose the 9th string D and have to put it on a knee lever. Also Emmons E9th set up normally has E lowers and E raises both on one side, and universals always have E raises on the right I think, and E lowers to get the B6th tuning on the left knee. I am sure its hard to switch seamlessly, and those are good reasons for only doing double ten, or only doing universal 12 string. I get it.

But anyhow,... curiosity killed the cat, and hope dies last.... Is there anybody out there who regularly does BOTH? or who used to do both? Or who tried to do both?

What has been the experience of universal players in this regard? If you don't do both, why did you give up on doing both? Or if you do both, how do you feel about that?

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 1 Mar 2023 7:17 am

Richard, I haven't switched like that, but for a brief period switched between my extended E9 guitar and an SD-10. It always took a little time for get my string grips under control when vascillating in that way. The adjustment period grew longer the older I got. So I would recommend picking a format and sticking with it. If weight when gigging out is an ongoing key factor, then I'd go with a universal 12-string, tons of guys like that setup so it must have value (I tried it a couple of times, just didn't suit my playing or ways of thinking, and the string 9 b7 note I use a ton, so didn't like giving that up on a uni).

K Maul · Post by **K Maul** » 1 Mar 2023 7:29 am

I have both. Maybe it’s kept my style simple but I play in a variety of open tunings anyway on dobro and lap steel. I switch between an extended E9 12, a semi Universal S11 and a D10 standard E9/B6(instead of C6)

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 1 Mar 2023 7:49 am

I played a U14 and a D10 at the same time a few years ago. Swapped back and forth willy nilly. No problem once I got used to it. Had basically the same set up on both guitars.

I tuned the rear neck on the D10 to B v. C to keep continuity.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Mar 2023 7:59 am

The jury's out for now. I have my Emmons D10 now (8+9) and I'm more than happy with its scope.

However, I couldn't resist ordering a 12-string steel when I first saw Johnny Cox' D13th. I've altered one or two things to accommodate my musical priorities, but it's essentially based on his idea. My Williams (8+6) has been on order for eight months and I hope it's not going tp be too much longer. At that point, I'll have both.

It's not quite the issue it once was. My only attempt at a 12-string was when I briefly owned an Ext E9 Mullen. I was playing for my living then and, like John, I found the confusion with grips interfered with my playing, in my case, to the point where my work was affected.

Now it's just me here at home so it won't matter. I will definitely never part with my trusty Emmons (my wife might when I fall off the perch

) although the Williams has yet to endear itself to me. I have every confidence that it will.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 1 Mar 2023 8:45 am

I play both standard E9 and E9/B6 universal, am working pretty hard on C6, have worked on a number of different tunings on nonpedal steels - C6 or C6/A7 with 3 on top, A6 or A6/F#7 with 5 on top, E6 or E13 when I wanna channel some Don Helms, have an 8-string resonator and 6-string National Silvo in G6 or G6/E7 which I like in certain situations, am sort of focusing on 10-string E13 and C6 or A6 on a nonpedal D10 right now. I sometimes try to channel guys like David Lindley, and I play slide guitar in various open tunings, and spanish (standard) guitar in standard and various open tunings.

Sometimes I only need standard 10-string E9, so that's what I bring. I think one could easily spend an entire lifetime focusing on just standard 10-string E9, but I guess that's not how I'm wired. I tend to use the universal more in E9 mode, but want the lower strings (blues/rock) plus a fairly full B6 - e.g., there's a bunch of western swing in the sets where I really want a fuller range that focuses more on playing the top of the guitar and doesn't worry about pedals as much.

As I am focusing more on the 6th side, I am finding, gradually, some conflicts on U12 between what I want on E9 and the 6th side. Aside from having to load up levers more, I also find conflicts in getting the tuning where I want it for both. Not insurmoutable, but I notice it. I had one Ext E9 Sho Bud - I would consider another to replace my 10-string E9, but I would want a more modern guitar. I could see benefit in a D12/10 with Ext E9 on the front neck and C6 on the back neck. I assume I'd have to order one new if I could find someone to make me one.

I like to play without pedals sometimes because - well, they sound different to me. I sort of embarked on that journey more seriously about 5 years ago when a gig came up with a lot of western swing and I wanted a more old-school sound.

This all probably started because I have always played a bunch of different tunings for both standard and slide guitar. I played guitar for over 30 years before I started playing steel a little over 20 years ago. I always played slide guitar - what got me into guitar was blues. Melodies, chords, the relationships between the strings, and tunings, are basically math to me - I'm basically an applied mathematician by trade. I visualize these relationships in various ways. That's pretty much the way I've lived my life the last 50+ years. It drives some people around me crazy because I'm always visualizing patterns and relationships between things. What specifically drives them crazy is that I often draw conclusions from that kind of thinking and apply them to my daily life. There is sometimes cognitive dissonance. LOL.

What makes music so fascinating to me is that there is an ENDLESS fountain of things to explore. I will never be able to explore them all, or even a tiny fraction. But I will no doubt die trying. The same can be said of mathematics - it's purely in the imagination, and the boundaries are infinite.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 1 Mar 2023 9:05 am

Some people find it easier to adapt than others. That applies to everything, not just pedal steels.

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 1 Mar 2023 9:22 am

For a couple of weeks the Mullen uni lived in the(garaged and covered) back of the truck and I got out the Super Pro. I was able to get around better than I thought I would on the E neck. It was interesting in a good way to have the b7 readily to hand instead of on the KL and I found a couple of uses that I wouldn't have otherwise. Next time the band has a couple of weeks off I'm going to pull my(unplayed for years!) MSA Classic D-10 out of the shed and wake it up.

I don't think I'll stop using the uni on gigs -- I need those thumpy low strings to support a rather diffident rhythm guitarist-- but I'm intrigued with 10 string E9 and maybe even real C6, and I want to get some seat time in.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 1 Mar 2023 9:38 am

Dave M.:

I agree with your notion of a 10/12 custom guitar.

I'm hoping D13th will be everything I believe it to be but, in a perfect world, C6th is already pitched as low as anyone could ask. It's E9th that needs extending in the lower register.

Wasn't Buddy's JCH a 10/12?

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 1 Mar 2023 10:04 am

Holy X$@# ! Great Answers ! Our different experiences are amazing. No two are alike...

Larry Phleger · Post by **Larry Phleger** » 1 Mar 2023 10:09 am

I have a Mullen PRP U12 and a MCI D10. I tune the E9 neck of the MCI the same as the first 10 strings of the U12 with the "Day" setup on the floor pedals. I use a knee lever to lower string 8 from E to D, and the other knees are set up the same as Jeff Newman's U12. I have had no problems switching between the 2 guitars using this approach.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 1 Mar 2023 10:45 am

One thing I didn't mention - I absolutely found I wanted/needed to put the E=>Eb lever on the right knee - specifically RKL for me - to make the uni B6 side workable for me. I went through a period where I tried every reasonable permutation of KL locations and resolved that I found the Paul Franklin approach to splitting E=>F and E=>Eb on different knees was best for me, even for E9. I think this makes switching between D10 and U12 easier, for me at least. I have long enough legs that I actually can hold in LKR to lower the Es and still hit pedals 5-8 for B6 playing. But it is awkward, and I see no reason to go that way.

I do have left knee levers working my Zum D10's C6 neck to get a reasonably complete Buddy Emmons type of setup, and I can use them while working the C6 pedals. But I still don't think I'd want to have to be constantly holding the uni E=>Eb lever in if it was on the left knee. But I think I'd prefer a fully loaded D10 (or D12/10) with some center C6 levers to handle what I'm doing with my left knee levers now. This would both cut the tension on the left knee levers, as well as put those C6 levers in a better ergonomic position.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 1 Mar 2023 10:50 am

I like the E to Eb on the right side as well, but unfortunately for me, I have trouble controlling the volume pedal when engaging Right knee changes. It is much easier on the left side that doesn't interfere with the volume pedal. But I'm practicing to try and eliminate either loud volume or no volumen engaging RKL to lower E's.

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 1 Mar 2023 1:31 pm

I have both. I switched to a U12 in 2005. But when I found my Sho-Bud, its tone forced me to relegate the U12 to the role of backup/home guitar. I'm just mindful that E to Eb is RKL on the Bud, as opposed to being RKR on the uni.

Sure, the Bud is heavier for gigging. But the sound makes carrying it worth the trouble.

Bobby D. Jones · Post by **Bobby D. Jones** » 1 Mar 2023 10:09 pm

I went from E9th to 12U E9th/B6th Newman set up.
The 6 G#-8 E-10 B grip to 6 G#-8 E-9 B grip. Was harder for me than changing E Left Knee levers to my RKL raise, RKR lower.

For a short time I debated changing my GFI S12 to E9th Ex. To get around the grip 10th to 9th string grip change switching guitars.
A GFI S12 Ultra Keyless came for sale on the forum, In easy driving distance. I bought it and set both up the same.

A 49 lb. cased guitar wins at my age.

colin mcintosh · Post by **colin mcintosh** » 1 Mar 2023 11:34 pm

I have an old P/P Emmons S10 and I have both E changes on the left leg. But my U12 has one E change on LKL and the other is on RLK. I placed it there for when in B6th I can play p5 and p7 together. The E changes on either leg didn't take long to get used to because I owned a Sho Bud many years ago and that was their set-up.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 2 Mar 2023 2:06 pm

Perhaps not exactly the reply you're seeking, but I play a D10 with an E9/B6 tuning on the front neck. Its basically the top 10 strings of a universal. String 9 goes from B - > D on RKL. I use that B-D lever a whole lot, and it allows me to have the G# on string 10 which is a major advantage... I have ABC on that neck and typical levers, and also a fourth pedal ( zero pedal ) that raises 6 G# a whole tone and drops the low G# on 10 to F#. All sorts of uses for that pedal which include a great deal of C6/B6 pedal 4 and pedal 7 sounds when combined with A pedal. Tons of other stuff too based around an F# tonal centre.
So it is like a mini uni set up on the front neck in ways.

FWIW I tune the back neck to A6/D, loosely based on the pedal 5 sound of trad C6 when Cs are raised. In my view, It would not make sense for me to have C6 on the back neck given how much B6 stuff is on the E neck....

Andy Brown · Post by **Andy Brown** » 3 Mar 2023 9:32 am

Hey fellow Tall Paul alumnus! I recently traded a Williams D10 for a Williams U12 setup with the D13 copedent. I have a Williams D10 8x7 on order that should be ready soon. I plan to keep the D10 and U12. I'm not sure how I will negotiate them for gigging. Maybe different guitars for different gigs? The D10 on order will be flamed maple, so maybe that will stay home, and the U12, which is black mica, can be the gigging axe.

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 3 Mar 2023 10:46 am

Andy you have done fantastic in learning C6th neck in record time ! But you're a real musician with a music degree, you play like 10 instruments and you know all the jazz chords. That's no fair !! I have some questions for you off line and so look for a private message soon. If there is anybody who can play a double ten in the basement and gig with a 12 string, I might have known it would be you !!

Richard Alderson · Post by **Richard Alderson** » 3 Mar 2023 10:48 am

I continue to be amazed at the answers being posted. We are like finger prints. There are no two steel players alike.

Michael Sawyer · Post by **Michael Sawyer** » 3 Mar 2023 1:17 pm

Kinda unrelated - but- i went from Fender 400s to a Mullen s10- the string spacing difference is a bear that i wrestle still,on some tunes....so it would be tough on me i figure...

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 3 Mar 2023 4:22 pm

Andrew's setup is interesting as it breaks the assumption that D10 means E9-C6

Reminds me that when I did play a D10 I tuned the rear neck to B6 to make the geography less confusing. This helped me to convert to U12, and I would recommend that all beginners do the same. (No need for different strings.)

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 5 Mar 2023 5:15 pm

I continue to be amazed at the answers being posted. We are like finger prints. There are no two steel players alike.

Indeed.Interesting thread. I bought the Winnie Winston book in the late 90s, roughly ten years before starting to play pedal steel, but was obsessed, and getting deeply into lap steel.
The beautiful assortment of tunings and copedents in the back was a major inspiration, and I still get interesting insights from those charts.

I suppose a good thing would be for our instrument to travel toward some kind of tuning standard, which it more or less has, but the personal approaches to tunings and copedents, I feel, is an intrinsic aspect of this instrument we love, and hopefully always will be.

Ian, I think universal tunings are kind of the ultimate, in ways... I do love tinkering though, and exploring the inherent character of different tunings, so the D10 is my travel companion for now.... ; )

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Double Ten AND 12 String universal

Double Ten AND 12 String universal

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