string theory: keyless vs post wraps

[Bill McCloskey]

Here is a topic I don't remember being discussed:

I'm no expert but I've always seen string changing experts talk about the importance of having a number of "wraps" around the tuning peg. My understanding to increase string longevity and decrease string breakage.

With a keyless system though, there are no wraps around the post. You cynch it tight and screw it down.

How does this jive with the purpose of the wrapping the string around the post 3 or 4 times? Any theories?

[Jack Stoner]

There are lots of theories on string installation and how and number of wraps. I don't think there are any proven "laws".

[Carl Williams]

Bill,
Just an FYI but I just installed “locking” Grover Tuners on my Gretsch….I don’t hear a bit of difference in the old standard tuners with 2-3 wraps on the pegs vs maybe one wrap on the locking tuners….I know you’re talking steel but IMO, a tuning peg is a tuning peg…. You have a very good question and point about Keyless guitars…

[Jack Stoner]

Bill,
Just an FYI but I just installed “locking” Grover Tuners on my Gretsch….I don’t hear a bit of difference in the old standard tuners with 2-3 wraps on the pegs vs maybe one wrap on the locking tuners….I know you’re talking steel but IMO, a tuning peg is a tuning peg…. You have a very good question and point about Keyless guitars…

Good point, as long as the string is wrapped or secured so the string doesn't slip with standard or locking tuners or a "Keyless" steel that is all that matters.

Once new strings settle in my keyless GFI holds tune as good as the keyed Franklin I had.

[Donny Hinson]

The primary reason for a significant number of wraps on the plain strings is to lessen slipping. (I recommend at least 6 or 7 wraps with the 3rd string on E9th.). And if you have keys with sharp edges on the holes, it may also reduce breakage at the key. As the wound strings do not have as much of a tendency to slip or break, the number of turns on them is relatively unimportant. But keep in mind that a number of turns can also also be helpful in certain situations to keep the strings pulling in a straight line, and not sideways (so as to keep hysteresis problems at a minimum).

Understand, I’m a hacker, but that’s my opinion and experience on the topic.

[Bobby D. Jones]

It is not just theory.

The string just stuck in the hole on a tuning key does not have much holding power. It is the friction caused by the wraps around the shaft that gives it stability for stable tuning. They need to be enough wraps on small strings to get off the hole in the key shaft and a wrap or 2 on the smooth solid shaft. To prevent string breaking at the key head.

If a string over laps itself on the shaft it can cut itself into by pull and friction.

The only friction the string has on the key is the small area where the round string contacts the key shaft so it takes several wraps.
Most KEYLESS setups the string is just wrapped about 310 to 320 degrees around the (Grub) screw. The string has contact with the screw shaft, The screw head and the Keyless fixture, With pressure from the screw causing more friction on the string.

I have played KEYED steels since about 1970. The last 2 years or so I am playing a GFI KEYLESS 12U. I have not had any problem with the Keyless Tuning, Or strings slippage with the keyless head. I have broke 3 strings on this GFI Keyless and screw grip on string did not slip or move.

[Pete Burak]

You can see the wraps around the post on the first 4 strings of my Keyless Excel S12U. I am admittedly not a fan of this method, but this is the way it is made.
From left to right that is 1-D#, 2-G#, 3-F#, 4-E (the top 3 string order on my Uni is slightly non-standard).
Darn Bill, now I need to change the whole set, just to keep up with the Jones'es!

[Lee Baucum]

String Theory

Are you a retired physicist?



~Lee

[Bill McCloskey]

"Are you a retired physicist?"

A retired punster.

[Lee Baucum]

"Are you a retired physicist?"

A retired punster.

[Neil Degraw]

My experience is, if I put a right angle sharp kink in the string right where in comes out of the thread hole on the tuning key, will stop slipping with only 2 to 3 wraps. It’s a physics thing where a right angle has much more resistance than having the come out of the threading with a natural curve. Right angle also helps starting the winding without movement of the string in the thread hole.

[fraser]

Hi Pete,

Does the locking screw on the Excel alleviate the need for lots of wraps? Evidently not since you've got quite a few. I thought the locking screw would keep it from slipping no matter how many wraps.

Thanks
Fraser

[Pete Burak]

There is nothing holding the strings on those pegs except for the wraps.
There is a Grub Screw on the side that locks the post in place, once it is wound to tension.
Other brands, like my Sierra Session Series, have a locking screw that screws down right on top of the string, which has only one half of one wrap on the locking screws post (threads).

[Roger Crawford]

It was mentioned about a string overlapping itself and cutting into itself causing string breakage. The Mullen website offers information about winding the third string. Cut the string 2” past the end of the key head, wind two turns toward the back of the guitar, then overlap to finish winding toward the front of the guitar. I’ve done this for years and have never broken a third doing it this way.

[GaryL]

I was breaking .011 G# strings on my SKH Emmons LeGrande. The spokesperson at Emmons recommended putting at least 6 wraps around the post. That stopped the problem, which had to do mostly with the sharper angle of the shortened amount of excess string going onto the short key head. This was apparently a common problem. This only applied to the 3rd string. Since the top F# was not raised much, there was no problem there.

I've never had much string breakage on my keyless guitars, since the excess string length is eliminated. The strings travel is so little that my GFI's do not have roller nuts. I notice a loss of tone before anything breaks.