Push Pull - What am I missing?

[Tommy Boswell]

I've never played or owned a push-pull guitar. What am I missing?

I happened onto an episode of TruCountry Music on RFD-TV with Rick Price on steel. Looked like he was playing an Emmons PSG through an Evans amp, and getting some of the best tone I've heard anywhere ever.

Just wondering. Do the vintage Emmons push-pull guitars have something that the modern all-pull guitars can't match tone-wise?

[Henry Matthews]

Short answer, yep

[John Hyland]

Short answer, yep

I guess the question is; why?

[Bill Duncan]

It's a confidential secret. You would have to have top security clearance to find out. You could possibly be called to testify before Congress for just asking such a question. Be careful.

[David Dorwart]

Yeah what about push pulls? I’ve always been under the impression that push pills were to be avoided in favor of all pulls. So I’m addition to great tone what are the benefits and downsides? And do the negatives outweigh the positives? I’ve never played one either but have read they can be finicky not returning to pitch, difficult pedaling etc

[Larry Dering]

I have never owned one even though the opportunity has been there several times. At pedal steel shows across the country I watched the pros like Hal Rug, John Hughey, Dicky Overby, Herby Wallace, Jimmy Day and yes Buddy Emmons play all brands of steels with awesome tone. My take on this was a great player can make a quality guitar sound like they want. Paul Franklin records with his Franklin, Mike Johnson with his Emmons. They both have monster tone and taste.

[Dave Grafe]

Modern all-pull mechanisms are smoother, lighter, and more versatile in terms of timing and tuning options. With the push-pull system raises defeat lowers on the same string so splits are not an option without tying a third pedal to the combination. For these and other reasons most players today are sitting behind all-pull guitars, at least in public.

That being said, the is a sweet, clear, bell-tone quality to a good push-pull guitar that even Emmons has not been able to duplicate in their contemporary all-pull guitars. I keep my push-pull set up at home for practice time while the all-pull is packed up and ready to go to work.

[Dave Grafe]

Modern all-pull mechanisms are smoother, lighter, and more versatile in terms of timing and tuning options. With the push-pull system raises defeat lowers on the same string so splits are not an option without tying a third pedal to the combination. For these and other reasons most players today are sitting behind all-pull guitars, at least in public.

That being said, there is a sweet, clear, bell-tone quality to the sound of a good push-pull guitar that even Emmons has not been able to duplicate in their contemporary all-pull guitars. Unless we're recording or making a point of looking real pretty I keep my push-pull set up at home for practice time while the all-pull is packed up and ready to go to work.

[Steve Rosko]

We’ll, this is gonna be a fun thread
I’m no expert, but I’ve been playing an 84 Emmons PP for about 5 years. In my experience:
- that it doesn’t stay in tune is not correct. Once I got the changes all adjusted correctly, I don’t touch them. I tune with the key head only. I’ll check the changes only occasionally. I suspect reports of not staying in tune have more to do with the changes not set up as designed.
- getting the changes working as designed is not for the faint of heart. It’s mechanically somewhat complex and not necessarily intuitive. On the other hand, I did it (with help from forum members). I think you’d need to have some mechanical aptitude. But, once the concept is understood it makes sense.
- does it sound “better” than other brands? I think so, but that’s maybe personal opinion. I played other brands before I got my Emmons.
- why does it sound like it does? Again I’m no expert, but I understand it has a lot to do with how the changer fingers contact the metal changer body.
- are the pedals harder to push than other brands? Yes, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

[Roger Rettig]

I was discouraged fifty years ago by the sole dealer who imported pedal steels. He has ZBs and some p/p Emmons in stock. He didn't disparage the Emmons but I now think that perhaps its more complex mechanics had defeated his staff. I could be wrong, but I came away with a ZB and IU played that brand for twenty years.

I played Sho-Bud for a while then ordered my first Emmons. It was an all-pull LeGrande by then and I've never owned a p/p.

In fact, the only one I ever sat behind and tried to play felt mushy and imprecise. I now believe that it was a poorly-maintained guitar and it was my bad fortune that it left an impression upon me.

I also believe that the trend towards more complicated setups has worked in favour of the all-pull steel. As has been stated here, splits on the p/p take a bit more tweaking than on a modern instrument.

Despite all that, I'm now convinced that a good push-pull in the right hands has the best tone of any steel built. Would I like a new Resound? Absolutely! Would I sacrifice some of my exotic pulls to have one? Of course. (In any case, a new Resound with my 8+9 setup would cost a king's ransom; I'd have to economize somewhere!)

[Donny Hinson]

Here's a quote from Steve Fishell's great new book, "Buddy Emmons - Steel Guitar Icon":

He (Buddy) was teaching a large class at Jeff Newmans's. In his opening talk on day one, he asked, 'By a show of hands, how many here think they would be a better player if they had better equipment?' Several of the students raised their hands. Buddy walked over to one of them and said 'get up'. Buddy sat down at his steel and nearly burnt the strings off of it. He stood up, looked at the class, and said, 'Now that we have that out of the way, let's move on'

I've had a push/pull for over 20 years, and I've seldom played it. Although it's a fine guitar, it just doesn't do anything for me, and (to me) I sound exactly the same when I play it as I do when I'm playing any other guitar.

Here's another Buddy quote:

Over the years I've had hundreds of players sit down at The Blade and play through my amp with my tone settings and they ended up sounding like they did on their own guitars.

Thinking that if you buy a certain guitar, you're going to sound like "that other guy" who plays one is sort of a fool's errand. Play whatever brand you like, but get over the idea that it will transform your playing and make you sound better. Sadly, most of it is "in the hands".

my2cents, anyway.

[Roger Rettig]

Donny

I think we can take that as read. I don't believe anyone seriously believes that better gear improves their ability - apart, that is, from the ones that raised their hands at Jeff Newman's seminar! )

The reality is that acquiring a new guitar can sometimes give a player a lift and, temporarily at least, inspire him.

I was careful to add in my post that the push/pull '...in the right hands' can sound exceptional.

Some days I get fired up and I play for hours: everything sounds good to my ear. On another day? Different story. I last about 20 minutes and go and do something else.

Same guitar, same amp, same player. It's me who's lacking, not my gear.

Didn't Buddy once say (when listening to recordings of his on a p/p and an all-pull Emmons) that he: "....couldn't tell a dime's worth of difference..."?

[Ricky Davis]

[Jim Cooley]

I've never played or owned a push-pull guitar. What am I missing?

I happened onto an episode of TruCountry Music on RFD-TV with Rick Price on steel. Looked like he was playing an Emmons PSG through an Evans amp, and getting some of the best tone I've heard anywhere ever.

Just wondering. Do the vintage Emmons push-pull guitars have something that the modern all-pull guitars can't match tone-wise?

I have all pull steels, and a push pull. All of my steels play very smoothly. They have all been expertly set up. I won't name names. One plays as well as the next, and that includes the push pull. Yes, the push pull plays as smoothly as any of my all pulls. It is incredibly smooth. Push pull mechanicisms are different from all pulls are different from pull release guitars. Push pulls seem more complicated at first. Maybe they are, at least in some ways, but they're not as confusing to me as they once were. In fact, the concept might be simpler in some ways. Maybe experience breeds familiarity. Some people have a difficult time grasping the concept. It also seems that some don't want to. I pondered and agonized over taking the push pull leap for quite some time. I talked to push pull haters and push pull snobs. I posted here on the forum. I played what I could, where I could. I finally had to know, once and for all, so I bought one. Then I bought another. I'm glad I did. I am not a push pull snob. As I stated above, I also own all pull guitars. I love all my children. They are all special in some way.

However, your initial question was about tone. Nobody can answer that for you. We like what we like, and we're all correct because it's what we like that counts for us. I have heard push pulls that sounded sublime, and push pulls that sounded like mud. But the same is true about all pulls. If a push pull has "that tone" and you can't get it out of your head, well, congratulations and condolences. The good news is that in the end, only you get to decide. The bad news is that in the end, only you can decide. I understand.

[Donny Hinson]

In truth, I don't hate any guitar. On the contrary, I think they all have something to offer and have more than once made the statement on the forum that "I've never really heard a bad sounding guitar". Of course, I'm like anyone else. There are sounds that catch my ear, that I sometimes prefer. But that's just me in a particular moment in time.

What bugs me most, though, is when some players try to make others feel guilty, tone-deaf, or amateurish and unschooled if they don't like the same kind of guitar that they play. That's why I think that every time someone makes a statement about the "best" anything, or "There's nothing like...", they should preface it with "To me...", or "In my opinion...". Fact is that if you say you dislike anyone's guitar, or their choice in guitars, you're just alienating them. You're becoming a "gear-snob", and we don't need those kinds of people looking down on aspiring players and making them feel out of place because they don't play a such-and-such or see things the way they do. Variety is the spice of life.

The way I see it, I'm happy that you're happy with whatever brand you choose to play. Don't constantly tell me how great your axe is, play it (and I'll make my own judgements). Buddy Emmons played damn near every brand...except the one I usually play. But I wouldn't hold that against him! And I'm sure that if he'd ever heard me play, any criticism he might have had would have probably been directed against me, and not my guitar. I feel we should be revering the players, not whatever brand they choose (or chose) to play. Because without the players, there is no sound, no tone, and no music.

Peace.

[Mitch Ellis]

Actually, better equipment did make me a better player. My very first steel guitar was a good one. But when I sat under my second one, (the one I've been playing ever since) I thought "OK. This is the one." Not only did it fit me better, the knee lever and foot pedal travel were much shorter and smoother feeling. This allowed me to hit the correct notes quicker and more precisely. I was having to "wrestle" with the first steel and didn't realize it. The second one improved my playing literally in minutes.

Mitch

[Per Berner]

I agree with previous posters that better equipment does not necessarily make you a better player. My take is that if I get a really good PSG, a really good VP and a reaaly good amp, I know for sure that I'm the only one to blame when I sound bad. I can't say "oh, that's because my equipment is not up to snuff", not even to myself. So I'm forced to improve my (very moderate) skills, instead of focusing on futile upgrades.

That said, I really think my p/p sounds a tiny bit better than my all-pull steels (which are easier to maintain and more ergonomical).

And then there is the joy of using top quality products, be it guitars or tools or shoes or cameras or cars or whatever.

[Tony Prior]

The P Pulls are really nice and many of them have a stand out tone. As the late great Bobbee Seymour said , Push Pulls are great, but not all of them !

I owned an 81 and played it regularly for a few years, it had a very identifiable tone to me. Today I only own a Legrande II - ALL PULL- it also has identifiable tone to me . When I didn't play well, it still showed with either of them ! LOL

[Roger Rettig]

Here I am, talking about push/pulls yet, as I said, I've never owned one. The only one I played disappointed me; I enjoy precise and definite pedal-stops and that guitar felt mushy.

I only mention that because it coloured my opinion of them but, as I'm somewhere near the bottom of the heap when it comes to steel-players, my opinion is of relative unimportance.

I agree with the view that some players on here can occasionally cast aspersions on those who 'don't play such-and-such instrument' as they're 'superior'. There's the veiled implication that the 'offender' hasn't got the ears to hear the difference.

But I've said this on the Forum before: while Emmons is the player I admired the most, he sometimes got a tone that sounded harsh to my ears. The Black Album is a touch like that for me, despite its virtuoso performances. His sound on the much-vaunted Roger Miller album is way too shrill for my taste, again despite the sheer quality of his inventive musicianship. The same with 'Minors Aloud'. I've come to believe that that is one of the hallmarks of the p/p; there's no doubt that they cut through any mix!

I think that that 'bite' was a deliberate aim when he designed the guitar in the early-'60s; a sound that would cut its way to the front in any situation.

The most pleasing tone he ever got (for me, I must stress) was on his Christmas album.

I'm a beginner by comparison (that goes without saying) but a bright, sharp tone frightens me a little. I feel it exposes flaws in my playing. I've ditched amplifiers for that reason.

However, I still want to own a p/p! I am where I am as a player, but they've a legendary place in our world and I feel I'm missing something, even as happy as I am with my now-23 year-old LeGrande.

[Lee Baucum]

Here is a discussion from the past:

https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/013266.html


Here is another:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 5dca9aa51a


And there is this, really long discussion:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... ee858ddf3d


~Lee

[Jack Stoner]

I had/have both. I had a (bought new) 71 D-10 PP, Black mica. I played it through a Twin Reverb. It sounded great, until I got a new Franklin in late 82. The Franklin with L705's and the easier pedal/knee levers did in the Emmons.

I sounded "like me" on both guitars. Same, I sound like me on my current GFI.

[Brian Gattis]

Try one and see for yourself. It took me years to take the plunge ,and I sure am glad I did.

[Dave Mudgett]

And there is this, really long discussion:

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... ee858ddf3d

Yeah, for me, that last thread pretty much ended it for me. I said just about everything I could really ever say about this there, and drew no firm conclusion, except for ME.

With this exception - I think the only way someone can really know whether a particular guitar (Emmons or anything else) is something that would trip THEIR trigger is to go play a well set up example and decide for him or herself.

[Donny Hinson]

…I think the only way someone can really know whether a particular guitar (Emmons or anything else) is something that would trip THEIR trigger is to go play a well set up example and decide for him or herself.

The problem is that most players who ask about a guitar know nothing about setting one up, so they couldn’t tell if it was properly set up. Also, some techs who do this kind of work charge up to $200 an hour. And then there is the argument that a “setup” only affects the tuning and playability, but not the sound (which is why most players change or buy guitars anyway).

Chasing a “sound” can get very expensive.

[Tommy Boswell]

Short answer, yep

Thanks for all the answers. I particularly like Henry's

I'm not rushing out to buy a push-pull.