Who lowers 6 and 9; (the James Bond Chord!)?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 11 Oct 2022 11:15 am

I've had it quite a while (on my P4 - 'Day' - so it's next to my A pedal) and I love it. It's a m7b5 or an open A13, and more besides.

Earlier today, though, I was noodling and found myself accidentally brushing the 3rd string. Ouch!!!

'Why not lower that too?' I thought. I found a spare rod and, hey presto, it works!

The James Bond Chord? An Em7maj7, perhaps? Pedal four: lowering 3,6,9 and playing all ten strings.

Question: Is there something I'm not comprehending here? Lowering the 3rd along with the 6th seems to make perfect sense. Randy Beavers has the 9/6 lower - maybe he's considered, then dismissed, lowering 3 as well?

I know, I know - I should get out more often.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 11 Oct 2022 12:53 pm

Lowering G# to G natural has always been on my RKR.
I lower 6 and 11. I like to lower 3 as well, but on some guitars it makes the lever too stiff so I omit that.
But I don't like to pull any other stings with that lever. For example the G natural is very useful with the D string (many G chords).

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 11 Oct 2022 1:08 pm

I will think again when I have the 12-string. I'll have other m7b5 options (mine will be D13, of course).

I think I will lower the two '3rds' (strings 3 and 7 - F# to F) on the LKV. Currently it's raising the F# to G# (7th only).

Whereas the Emmons verticals are a nightmare and lack downward adjustment, the Williams has a better system and can be set anywhere you want.

For now, though, I'm making the most of my D10 - this new pull is fun. I like raising the E9th's G# to A# but I don't use it much.

Doug: IF my D13 should in the future revert to an Ext E9, I've made sure of sufficient rods to accommodate three pulls on my B pedal.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 11 Oct 2022 4:08 pm

I lower strings 3 and 6 to G on LKL front, and string 9 to C# on RKR (RKR also raises my string 2 (D) to D#). Easy to hit them together.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 11 Oct 2022 10:56 pm

My "front" LKL2 lowers strings 11 and 6 G#-G and I use it many times in combination with my RKL which lower string 9 D-C# and string 2 D#-D-C#

On strings 9 8 6 5 I might go one fret down and choose to use my "rear" LKL1 E's to F and halfpedal the A pedal instead to simulate the same change as it feels different and might get the melody line or chord movement to flow a little more like what I want it to sound like. Exact same notes altho it feels and behave slightly different.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 12 Oct 2022 5:35 am

Roger, reading your post querying the lowering of the 3rd string along with 9 and 6 makes me smile. It reminds me of the journey I was on, "trying to have it all"... I operated my "LEVER LAB" for a couple years and wasn't done yet when Travis was over and did this video. There were changes made after this, and oddly now that I've got E9th with everything where I "pretty much" want things, NOW I'm spending more time on C6th, go figure

.

Anyhow, I admire your never ending inquisitive mine still searching for something new.

Here's a short video you might get a kick out of, from the LEVER LAB, Travis Toys Lesson's from Dales, Lesson 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppp0PUopKd0

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 12 Oct 2022 6:09 am

Interesting, Dale, but confusing. I can get that pretty sequence Travis is playing without engaging the 'secret' KL (just B pedal and C pedal).

I do raise 7 a whole step (along with 1 and 2) and I do lower 9 and 10 (RKR) to C# and A.

But there are still no comments on the advisability of lowering 3 along with 6 and 9. Has this been tried and rejected (Travis and Randy have the 6/9 lower) for some reason that I can't yet see?

Thanks - I was hoping you'd chime in (pun intended!)

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 12 Oct 2022 8:42 am

Roger Rettig wrote:Interesting, Dale, but confusing. I can get that pretty sequence Travis is playing without engaging the 'secret' KL (just B pedal and C pedal).

I do raise 7 a whole step (along with 1 and 2) and I do lower 9 and 10 (RKR) to C# and A.

But there are still no comments on the advisability of lowering 3 along with 6 and 9. Has this been tried and rejected (Travis and Randy have the 6/9 lower) for some reason that I can't yet see?

Thanks - I was hoping you'd chime in (pun intended!)

The GOOD plays can get stuff with way less than what I need.

As for the 3rd string lower, I've seen several guys that have it, though I don't know of any with the 6&9 lower... Have you tried the 6&9 lower with the 3rd string un-lowered?... if so, did that give you anything useful?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 12 Oct 2022 8:55 am

That's my point, Dale - it just got in the way un-lowered. There may be a good reason for not doing it that greater brains than mine have already figured out, though.

I never wanted to just lower the G#s to G to get the minor; there are already so many other ways of doing that. But 9 and 6 made sense to me for that A9 or the m7b5. I had to be careful not to touch the 3rd, though, which got me thinking.

No - I found nothing that I wanted with one 3rd flattened and the other not.

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 12 Oct 2022 9:23 am

Roger Rettig wrote:That's my point, Dale - it just got in the way un-lowered. There may be a good reason for not doing it that greater brains than mine have already figured out, though.

I never wanted to just lower the G#s to G to get the minor; there are already so many other ways of doing that. But 9 and 6 made sense to me for that A9 or the m7b5. I had to be careful not to touch the 3rd, though, which got me thinking.

No - I found nothing that I wanted with one 3rd flattened and the other not.

I went and sat down to mine, AFTER I responded, and yeah, it would be better lowered so as not to get in the way. Though I've rarely had that happen... the 469 grip is so 2nd nature, its one of the few grips I seem to nail with regularity.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 12 Oct 2022 9:49 am

Dale

I could easily be mistaken. Perhaps there's a combination of that pedal and certain KLs that would work. I'm just saying that I couldn't find anything.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Oct 2022 11:07 am

I have what would be both P4 and P7 from the "normal" C6 on my S12ext E9 (it raise the G# to A#) and split tuned with my front LKL2 that lowers G#-G(strings 11 and 6) I can bring that A# note back to A

The C6 P7 variant can sometimes be found on regular 10 string E9 if there is an extra pedal in addition to the normal A B C pedals. It would raise 6th string G#-A# and 5th string B-C#.

It will give me a nice Amaj7 (pedal and LKL2) on strings 6 5 4 3 since I dont lower the 3rd string.

I do not feel a need for lowering the 3rd string G# to G on my guitars since I use that change many times together with the full step raise on the 6th string

If I only had the 3 A B C pedals and an extra knee lever, then on a S10 I might consider lowering both 6 and 3 G#-G (or at least have the extra parts to do so if I wanted)

The m7b5 with lowering 9 and 6 a halfstep is

altho I do this w two separate levers.

B.Erlandsen

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 13 Oct 2022 5:56 am

Re: lowering both G#s along with the 9th...

I asked Travis Toy (a staunch proponent of the 9/6 lower) if he'd considered lowering the 3rd string as well and replied to the effect that he 'thought it a good idea but hadn't got around to adding it yet'.

I like it. It's fine where it is on my current D-10 (P4) but now I'm pondering yet another change to my impending 12-string D13 Williams.

In this chart, I've asked for the 7th string raise (F# to G# - G# to A# on E9) but have since asked for the 3rd string to also be raised.

Now? I'm not so sure. I may change that so that LKV lowers both the 3rd and the 7th a half-step. I can easily engage RKR to lower the 10th from C to B (D to C# on E9).

Bengt: thanks for your input. I doubt, though, that I could live without my precious 9th string D (10th string C on my D13th). It's long been my opinion that the D - and the ability to lower it to C# - is an open door that really makes the E9 tuning. That, and being able to lower the B and split with the A pedal.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 13 Oct 2022 7:58 am

The C8 P7 variant can sometimes be found on regular 10 string E9 if there is an extra pedal in addition to the normal A B C pedals. It would raise 6th string G#-A# and 5th string B-C#.

Thinking about doing this with my S12/E9 pedal 5, which is now a rarely-if-ever-used Franklin change. I love that m/M9(or13) sound and might be using it a lot if I had it.

I don’t think my head could wrap around a 3&6 half-step lower, and I already have a 7&1 half-step raise that gets plenty of abuse.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 13 Oct 2022 10:14 am

@Fred Treece, P5 is same location where i have G#-A# and B-C# on my S12extE9. I am almost certain you gonna like that change as it can be used with almost any other lever combo. I use it a lot with my E'Eb lever. The 7&1 halfstep change you have will also work excellent together with that pedal.

B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 13 Oct 2022 12:09 pm

Being an ear player and just a "noodler" on E9 (my main steel is still my 9+2, B6 Fender 400) I can't figure the "James Bond" reference even though I DO lower the 6th (I lower it and raise the 5th using the 9th pedal on my Fender 800. Hey,the pedal was there when I got the guitar,I fooled around with changes and it worked, so that's that!).

The 9th string one makes sense to play the melody using RKR and using just the 8th & 9th strings. But needless to say my theory knowledge would half-fill a shot glass.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 13 Oct 2022 12:45 pm

Jim:

It's the closing chord of the Bond theme. It was actually Vic Flick on the original session on six-string but, purely by accident, I found it across all ten strings of my E9 with 9,6 and 3 lowered.

The chord is an Em7maj9; with that pedal depressed, I get these scale-tones from low to high:

5/6/1/b3/5/1/b3/maj7/9

The emphasis is on that high F# on the 1st string - that '9th' tone characterizes the music.

On six-string, it's simple. Open 6th, 5th (10th fret), 4th (9th), 3rd (8th), 2nd (7th). Mute the 1st.

I know, I know - what earthly use will I have for it on steel? Still, it was unexpected and fun to analyze.

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 13 Oct 2022 8:01 pm

You have the intervals right, Roger, but the nomenclature - it is not an Em7. There is no b7, which Em7 implies. It’s EmM9, or EmM13 - sorta.

With A on the bass, this chord also might be called A13#11, which is a way of jazzing up your common A7 chord. And getting fired for doing it in the country band you play in.

BE wore out the Lydian Dominant scale with this chord voicing in mind when he played his single note jazz and blues stuff. There is also the idea of substituting the tritone of the V chord (E in the key A) with this voicing, which could be called Bb13#11, or you could more properly call it E7#9#5. I believe the Master was familiar with that concept also.

But the question was, what are YOU going to do with it? Hey, play the James Bond theme, what the heck.

I nitpick theory. That’s what I’m here for. It’s all I have to contribute to the steel guitar community. Irritating as hell, I know. I’ll stop some day.

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 13 Oct 2022 8:44 pm

I play 12 string, and I have 3 G’s (Bb6) - I lower all 3

Couldn’t live without it - minor maj7, 9#11, making P6 minor, a little thing I do with strings 5,6, and 7 - very useful. Mine is on VKL

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 14 Oct 2022 1:19 am

Fred- you're right.

I've seen this chord named various ways but, after more thought, I think I'd go with Em/M13 - I think!

That implies the presence of a 6 and a 9. Given the source (the Bond Theme by John Barry), the key would determine the chord's name. Playing it through in my head, it sounds like a minor key.

But yes - a b7 would alter the spelling and the effectiveness of the tension-building harmony.

Playing it? When I get my 12-string D13 guitar, I'll have a go. I'll have more low end range than Vic Flick did in 1962.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 14 Oct 2022 1:22 am

Chris

I intend to lower the 3rds on my LKV on the new D13 guitar.

Mitchell Smithey · Post by **Mitchell Smithey** » 14 Oct 2022 3:28 am

Roger I put the string 3 lower as well as 6 and 9 on one of my guitars and it’s going on another as soon as I can get to it. I love the tonality of it.
It did not time as well as I like but I may put a gear down on it.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 14 Oct 2022 3:38 am

Mitchell:

I have almost certainly reassigned the LKV on my new D13 guitar so that it lowers the 3rds. I will have the equivalent of the 9th-lower (actually the 10th - C to B) on RKR.

I really wanted the new steel to be an MSA but was too impatient to deal with the (then) 24 month wait.

I'm really tempted by the 10-6 or, in my case, 12-6. Is that a custom price? JC's new guitar looks exciting!

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 14 Oct 2022 7:20 am

Roger- The JB chord tones are also outlined in the melody of “Harlem Nocturne”. That tune is all about the melodic minor scale, which the Lydian Dominant borrows from.

Never heard of The Viscounts before, but this is a cool early 60’s greasy rock version:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KfAv8yAaHps

Joe Goldmark:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jZk6ok-om3g

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 14 Oct 2022 8:12 am

Good examples, Fred - thanks.

I happen to have just got off the phone with Mike Bell, an accomplished jazz pianist (see Mike playing with Buddy Emmons and Hogan's Heroes on YouTube) and we discussed the chord in question.

Mike says that mixing major and minor in nomenclature is frowned upon. His view? He would refer to it as 'Em/aug7/add 9'. When pushed on the point of a regular Emaj9, he confirmed what I'd thought - 'maj9' implies 1,3,5, major 7, 9th.

I'm not saying that settles the matter -

- it's another point of view.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Who lowers 6 and 9; (the James Bond Chord!)?

Who lowers 6 and 9; (the James Bond Chord!)?

The James Bond chord