Carvin X60 Speaker mic'd vs Phone Jack out

[Jonathan Scherer]

I use a Carvin X60 amp and for the past four years or so,
have been micing it to the mixer. This year our band configuration has changed a little and I am now set up behind and to the left of the male vocalist/harmonica/sound man guy.

He said at our last performance, a week ago, that the sound from my amp (the volume knob was set at 1.5) was bothering his tinnitus a lot, so at the next rehearsal we unplugged the speaker on the amp and connected a cable to the phone jack, then an adaptor to an XLR cable going to the mixer.

I now have the amp volume knob set at 1.

On the clean bright channel, it sounds okay on the monitors, but I can only have the pick up open about an 1/8" or else my sound is way too loud. I am playing a 1948 National Dynamic.

When I go for distortion with the amp footswitch, it is less than ideal, a different sound than I get when the speaker is plugged in and mic'd.

Would it be better to go from the phone jack to a DI box and then to the mixer?

Any ideas, suggestions much appreciated!

Thanks,
JMan

[Bruce Derr]

If I understand you correctly, you unplugged the speaker and then connected the speaker output directly to a mixer via a 1/4" to XLR adapter. This is not a good idea for several reasons. One, it risks overloading, or possibly even damaging, the mixer input. Two, the speaker output needs to see a low-impedance load like a speaker. The mixer's input impedance is too large a mismatch for the amp's speaker output, which can damage the amp's output transformer. Three, the volume might be hard to control because the signal from the amp will be larger than the range expected by the mixer, and you'll have to dial it way back. Four, you might get a noise floor that's higher than normal, because you'll be turning the instrument volume on the amp way down, but the amp's noise floor will still be there and will be amplified by the mixer.

Since you're not using the amp's speaker for hearing your instrument anyway, you'd be better off using a preamp, instead of your Carvin, to feed the mixer, with some effects added as needed.

Edit: I overlooked that you mentioned "line out" in the thread title. If you are not plugging the speaker output into the mixer, ignore reasons one, three, and four. Howevever, it's still bad for the amp to run it with the speaker unplugged, although there may be a shorting jack at the speaker output, which would protect the output transformer. A preamp would be better (and lighter).

[Jonathan Scherer]

The speaker is unplugged and the cable to mixer connects from the phone jack.

I probably misspoke saying line out in the subject title,
but FWIW the manual does say the phone jack can be used to feed a PA mixer.




Reason three is accurate to what is happening, and all your other reasons make sense to me.

J

[Richard Sinkler]

You could try placing the amp in front of you facing you, and not the singer. Then you can mic (my preference) or use the line out/slave to the PA. I have done this many times.

[ajm]

To sort of reword what Bruce Derr said in his first post........STOP.

I am still confused as to what you are doing, but one thing that I do know: You need an appropriate load on that speaker jack.

The input to a mixer is not an appropriate load.
If you have been connecting the amp output directly to the mixer input, it may be too late for either the amp or the mixer channel input or most likely both.

Do you have a photo of:
- The back of the Carvin showing the jacks, or
- A photo or a diagram of your connections?

I believe that there is a way to do what you need to do simply and SAFELY.
But without some more details I'm at a loss.

BTW, I am somewaht familiar with your amp. I have the big brother to your X60, an XV112E that is a tolex 6L6 from the mid 80's.

[Jonathan Scherer]

Here are a couple photos.

Going over tonight to try different mic'd amp locations with the vocalist/sound guy.

Hope the amp has not been damaged already!

Ultimately, a good preamp seems like the way to go.

Thanks for the advice, Bruce, Richard and ajm.

[ajm]

Wow.
Someone else can chime in, but the absolute #1 thing I would do BEFORE TURNING POWER BACK ON would be to plug that speaker back in AND LEAVE IT PLUGGED IN.

Then, if the amp has not been damaged, and still seems to be working properly, I'd do two things.
- Thank the Lord above.
- Go and buy a lottery ticket, cause you are one lucky pup.

Going forward..............You want to cut the volume.

There are several ways to do this, in varying degrees of complexity. But you really need somebody actually there that knows what they're doing, and not trying to do this over the internet and social media. Please don't take this the wrong way, but it doesn't sound like you know a lot about what you are doing here, or have been told by someone else to do. This is a tube amp, and is NOT the same as a solid state amp.

Carvin changed configurations frequently over the years. It's tough to tell *exactly* what you have without more pictures. And, I can't seem to find a schematic close to what you might have. But it appears to be a very old one, since it's tolex and not that furry carpet covering.

It appears that your amp does not have an effects loop. There is an easy and safe way to cut the volume if it does.

If you want to cut the volume COMPLETELY from the amp, and use the SLAVE jack, pull the two (assuming) 6L6 tubes. But even then, there is no reason to unplug the speaker.

As was mentioned, there are other ways to cut the stage volume.......easily and safely.

You could turn the amp around and or face it another direction. You can still use the Slave jack.

You could put something over the speaker. A piece of carpet, cardboard....use your imagination.
A lot of pros use plexiglas like barriers in front of the amps to cut down on the volume being dispersed. You can still use the Slave jack.

There are other things like power attenuators that will do what you want, but once again, you need someone actually there that knows what they are doing.

[Jonathan Scherer]

Yep, we are going to plug the speaker back in tonight, see if it is okay, try some different placements of the amp, with it mic'd.

We do have some plexiglas shielding, extra from the drum shielding.

Not taking your advice the wrong way,"no wukkahs, mate".

If the amp pictured is damaged, I will bring my Carvin X60
over and it does have an effects loop.

Thanks,
J

[Jonathan Scherer]

Got lucky!

Speaker connected, power on. Slave connected to mixer,
decided not to mic it.
The amp is fine, mixer is fine.
Sounds good again. Volume is dialed in.

Also repositioned the amp facing 90 degrees from the harmonica player/vocalist, with a plexi shield around the back.

J

[Bruce Derr]

Glad you got it dialed in. I looked at the schematic for the Carvin, and the speaker jacks are not the shorting type, so the amp should definitely always have a speaker connected. The slave output that you are using is derived from the speaker output but is attenuated (as you later mentioned), so it's safe for (and designed for) the kind of situation you are using it for.

Somewhere in my basement "project queue" I have an old X-60A that needs work, so I'm naturally interested to hear that you have been using a similar amp for steel and liking it.

[Jonathan Scherer]

Here are some photos of the amp location,
plus shielding, slave going to mixer, worked really well for full band rehearsal tonight.

My Carvin at home is the X-60 A with the Celestion G12M-70
speaker, 16 ohms.

The one pictured in the photos is a Carvin X-60 without the A designation.
The vocalist/harmonica player owns this one and installed a Carvin V12 8 ohms speaker in it.

They both sound good, the one with the Carvin V12 speaker is louder and a little brighter.

[ajm]

In a previous post I said:
"If you want to cut the volume COMPLETELY from the amp, and use the SLAVE jack, pull the two (assuming) 6L6 tubes."

Then, last night I had a revelation.
In addition to that, I saw Bruce Derr's post this morning.
"The slave output that you are using is derived from the speaker output......"

I need to correct myself.
If you pull the power tubes, and the speaker no longer gets any signal, then the Slave output won't either.

IMO you have come up with a good solution that is also flexible and adaptable to different situations. Not to mention safe.

Let's just hope that having that speaker disconnected for a while didn't do any partial damage that might get worse and surface on down the road.