CNC parts

[Paul Strojan]

I think it would be a good idea to have a place where CNC files for steel guitar parts can be shared.

[Jeremy King]

Completely agree! Great idea!

[Jimmie Hudson]

It takes a lot of time and trial and error to get the files correctly done for each part of a pedal steel. I would not think any builder would want to share them for free.
I have all the files I have done for my guitars over the last 12 years. Non of them would I share for free.

[Edward Dixon]

CNC programs are usually written for the machine, the tools and tooling that will be used. Smaller machines generally take smaller cuts to machine a part than an industrial machine. A program written for an industrial CNC probably won't run on a home or hobby CNC.

Those who own CNC machines can usually program them. What you need is accurate blue prints, those can be made just by precisely measuring the part in question, if you have one.

[George Piburn]

GeorgeBoards agrees with Jimmy and Edward.

I've offered my CNC Files - in numerous variations -
Lease - Franchise - purchase limited uses - full out right ownership - in person training - teach you how to design and cut out your own designs;

Bottom Line = ZERO Interest what so ever.
I've advertised this worldwide for years , far beyond this Forum still no one has any interest in making Lap Steel Guitars on a commercial level.

The Few folks who still make laps to sell invested the years and tears proving programs and adjusting machines -- already have their CNC work figured out.

Even if we all gave our CNC Files for Free - what difference will it make if no one uses them ?

I am super happy that Jimmie was able to sell out to buyers I hope they pick up the making again.

[Jeremy King]

I was under the impression that Paul was talking about diy/hobby builders sharing files. I would not expect someone running a business to share their files without compensation.

By the way, I'm a big fan of Jimmie's work and Georgeboards.

[George Piburn]

Most folks who do hobby or one off type work use a X-Y Mill for metal, commonly referred to as a Bridgeport.

Now available in table top versions - affordable to the hobbyist. Little training - no computers needed.

A CNC is a whole udder thing, the eyedeer behind CNC is to be able to Duplicate parts accurately.

To have a place or sticky here on this forum would be a great idea for sharing Line drawings - Dimensions -

Cutters - Depths of cut , things like that for folks who are making one or two items more or less by hand.

I personally think it will be awesome to have more sharing , and ultimately more Steel Guitars. GeorgeBoards supports your concept of a place to share.

"I like em I love em I want some more of em".

[Jimmie Hudson]

GeorgeBoards agrees with Jimmy and Edward.

I've offered my CNC Files - in numerous variations -
Lease - Franchise - purchase limited uses - full out right ownership - in person training - teach you how to design and cut out your own designs;

Bottom Line = ZERO Interest what so ever.
I've advertised this worldwide for years , far beyond this Forum still no one has any interest in making Lap Steel Guitars on a commercial level.

The Few folks who still make laps to sell invested the years and tears proving programs and adjusting machines -- already have their CNC work figured out.

Even if we all gave our CNC Files for Free - what difference will it make if no one uses them ?

I am super happy that Jimmie was able to sell out to buyers I hope they pick up the making again.

Thanks,
The new owners are building pedal steels every day. And making lap steel kits every day. They are a little backed up on orders but most are shipping out in 2 to 3 weeks now. I am glad they are able to keep the Hudson steels on the market.

[Andy DePaule]

Edward, George and Jimmie made several good reasons not to share those files.
I would never question their way to do business.
The market for both lap steels and pedal steel guitars is very limited to say the least.
If they gave away their years of efforts you can bet in no time at all their designs would be coming from China.
What Edward said about tooling & CNC machines makes a lot of sense to me.

In our family inlay business we do all our cutting by hand. Our drawings are computer generated by several artists.
I've spent thousands of dollars over the years having those done for me.
We convert them to high resolution jpg files for out cutters to use.
Most people assume that our inlays are cut by CNC because they are so well done.

I started my pre-cut inlay business 22 years ago. We have had some people in Asia copy our designs to sell on eBay.
That is frustrating, but I have had customers return after trying those copies and not getting the quality we maintain.
Our business has grown over the years to where we have over 10,000 separate inlay offerings and none of the copy cats have ever come close to duplicating what we have in inventory.

When customers ask for the files to use to CNC route the pockets for the inlays, we do share them any file for an inlay they have bought.
We also are them to kindly not share the files and as far as I know, none have.
They have to use some kinds of programs to convert the jpg files into vector files that can run their CNC machines.
I'm rather bad with computers, but I do know inlay.
The reason I do share with customers is that a lot of luthiers now have small to medium size CNC machines for doing a lot of the work.
I like to be able to help them and it's also a small community world wide and tend to be very honest people.

[John Hyland]

I’ve been developing a 3d plastic printed PSG for about 3 years plus ( not full time). That’s a lot of hard work to give away. If it all pans out and proves reliable I would like to sell. I would need to warranty the parts and would consider @andy depaule ‘s option to give a file to a purchaser although printing and posting would be easier for the purchaser. That said open source development is a great idea and would advance a whole new way to make and build a PSG.

[Ian Worley]

I think what you're really suggesting is sharing 3d CAD models of various parts. There are two stages to preparing a file for CNC machining. The first step is simply modeling the part in a 3d CAD program like SolidWorks or AutoCAD. These are easy to share and anyone could use them for what ever purpose they chose.

The second step is preparing/converting that model for machining in a "CAM" program, which interprets the 3d info in the model and converts it to a useful form (most typically "g-code") for use with a CNC machine. The second step is dependent on the specific CNC machine, tooling and control software used (such as Mach3/4), containing specific info about the size/speed/profiles of various tools/cutters to be used, quick change tool heads, etc. The CAM software defines the cutter size/types to be used, optimized tool paths, depth of cuts, compensation for a specific machine's backlash characteristics, etc.

Sharing simple 3d CAD models for various parts could be useful. Converting those models to g-code and running them is really something the person operating the specific CNC machine needs to do. If that step is over someone's head they really shouldn't be trying to operate a CNC IMO. There is always some trial and error, new stuff rarely works perfectly the first run.

3d printing is a little more straightforward, a 3d CAD model can be converted to an .stl file and printed directly via the native control software on most machines. There are some obvious caveats to that too, models need to be designed to work within the limitations of the printer heads (some objects will require extra temporary supports for offset parts, etc.), and to optimize efficiency so you're not wasting miles of filament or powder on hidden stuff. There are repositories similar to what the OP is suggesting like www.thingiverse.com, which have thousands of user-shared .stl models ready for printing.

[Paul Strojan]

My inspiration for suggesting sharing parts files was the fellow who reversed engineered a steel guitar as a hobby project. My thought is that steel guitars are such niche instruments that we are going to need a way to obtain parts to keep our guitars working.

Upon reflection, what I really want is a way to buy the parts made on demand with the CAD drawings.

[John Hyland]

My inspiration for suggesting sharing parts files was the fellow who reversed engineered a steel guitar as a hobby project. My thought is that steel guitars are such niche instruments that we are going to need a way to obtain parts to keep our guitars working.

Upon reflection, what I really want is a way to buy the parts made on demand with the CAD drawings.

Maybe the site could have a sticky of people who can make parts to order. Even give them ratings.

[Richard Sinkler]

Andy...

Don't you think if China was interested in entering the pedal steel guitar market, they wouldn't just buy one (or more) and reverse engineer it themselves. They have more than enough ability to make steels like that. My question would be if they would be subject to patents in the United States. But they could also modify the parts enough to get around any patent issues. Interesting subject.

[Andy DePaule]

Andy...

Don't you think if China was interested in entering the pedal steel guitar market, they wouldn't just buy one (or more) and reverse engineer it themselves. They have more than enough ability to make steels like that. My question would be if they would be subject to patents in the United States. But they could also modify the parts enough to get around any patent issues. Interesting subject.

Would China copy pedal steel guitars, I'm not sure though I know they could do so very easy with the CNC drawings?
They certainly are making lap steels for export. Most are 6 string with crappy sounding guitar pickups and hardware.
Some are 8 strings. Less standard guitar parts, but they managed to retain that thin crappy tone.
It's all about the $$$$ like so much else in the world.

I have a Fender re-issue 50's style lap steel. It's made in China and sounds like all the ones from China which is why I never play it.
It has a Chinese made Strat looking pickup hidden inside what looks like a string through magnet cover. That's what tricked me.
Would not have bought it if I'd known.

I think each person should decide what they would or would not share.
The sharing of information here on "Builders Corner" is going to help a lot of people who would like to give building one a jump start.

[Jimmie Hudson]

My inspiration for suggesting sharing parts files was the fellow who reversed engineered a steel guitar as a hobby project. My thought is that steel guitars are such niche instruments that we are going to need a way to obtain parts to keep our guitars working.

Upon reflection, what I really want is a way to buy the parts made on demand with the CAD drawings.

Just draw the parts up yourself. It is not that hard to do. I taught myself how to do Cam and Cad program.
Also you can get a digitizing table and draw large or small parts . Then convert to DXF files and then do drawing and programing for GCode.

[George Piburn]

what I really want is a way to buy the parts made on demand with the CAD drawings.

There are tons of Zazzle type places now producing on demand 1 Off products, mostly with screen printing and so forth.

Aftermarket exact copy items for steel guitars is a whole different concept. Honestly a super unlikely preposition.

1; for the most part all of the pedal steels over the decades were made in small shops - not CNC - but Cast parts - and other various methods.
Even shops with robotic controlled cutters typically make micro adjustments as they go along.

CNC is for Standardizing a shape for Duplication.

The cost for a commercial company to set up a Robotic Mill (Computer Numerically Controlled) is amortized by the quantity of parts made per run.

For example: My 1st use of CNC in 1994 I cut out 6 steel guitar bodies.
I paid 1260.00 for the mill to set up with all of the cutters set for the auto bit changer all leveled and zeroed so the robot can cut - change cutters cut some more
including the use of the majorly expensive cutters.

That = $210.00 per piece for the set up costs alone. + the cost per cut on top of that.

Had I made 1000 bodies the cost per item would Amortize out to $1.25 per piece.
Which is a savings in the range of $200,000.00 in the long run.

Back to after market parts to keep A Single steel guitar working --
Just on this forum.
There are already folks who make after market parts for many of the well known steel brands.
Also there are folks folks willing to make 1 off short run parts.

To have a CNC machine all set up in a fabrication facility somewhere with a dedicated Skilled Operator
waiting for a CAD File to arrive over the internet.
Then do everything needed to produce 1 item and Sell it for any reasonable price is impractical in every since of the word.

1Piece internet Coffee cup, TShirt - Mouse Pad = YES

1 Custom CNC Steel Guitar Part , not so likely.

[Richard Sinkler]

George hit the nail on the head.

In the 1980's, I was the service manager of a machine tool distributor in Northern California. We were the Bridgeport and Cincinnati Milacron distributors.

I had access to a whole showroom of CNC mills, from knee mills to machining centers, as well as grinders and turning centers. Our applcations engineer taught me how to use Bridgeport EZ-Cam software. I made parts for, and rebuilt the Sho~Bud Super Pro I had. The programming and setup was the most time consuming part. You will be paying for TIME. Of course there is also material costs. This is why it costs so much to have a machine shop do one or two parts for you. Having the CNC programs already available would bring down the costs, but I would think any machine shop would probably have their programmer look over your program and run it through the Cad/Cam software's ability to virtually run the part on the computer. Then an actual test run on the machine, which might produce your one part, if you're lucky. That is stuff you will be paying for.

George said:

The cost for a commercial company to set up a Robotic Mill (Computer Numerically Controlled) is amortized by the quantity of parts made per run.

For example: My 1st use of CNC in 1994 I cut out 6 steel guitar bodies.
I paid 1260.00 for the mill to set up with all of the cutters set for the auto bit changer all leveled and zeroed so the robot can cut - change cutters cut some more
including the use of the majorly expensive cutters.

That = $210.00 per piece for the set up costs alone. + the cost per cut on top of that.

Had I made 1000 bodies the cost per item would Amortize out to $1.25 per piece.
Which is a savings in the range of $200,000.00 in the long run.

I do think it can be a good idea to share CNC programs for parts if someone wants to share. But I wouldn't expect too many established builders to give away their programs, at least not free.

[Paul Strojan]

Andy...

Don't you think if China was interested in entering the pedal steel guitar market, they wouldn't just buy one (or more) and reverse engineer it themselves. They have more than enough ability to make steels like that. My question would be if they would be subject to patents in the United States. But they could also modify the parts enough to get around any patent issues. Interesting subject.

Would China copy pedal steel guitars, I'm not sure though I know they could do so very easy with the CNC drawings?
They certainly are making lap steels for export. Most are 6 string with crappy sounding guitar pickups and hardware.
Some are 8 strings. Less standard guitar parts, but they managed to retain that thin crappy tone.
It's all about the $$$$ like so much else in the world.

I have a Fender re-issue 50's style lap steel. It's made in China and sounds like all the ones from China which is why I never play it.
It have a Chinese made Strat looking pickup hidden inside what looks like a string through magnet cover. Thats what tricked me.
Would not have bought it if I'd known.

I think each person should decide what they would or would not share.
The sharing of information here on "Builders Corner" is going to help a lot of people who would like to give building one a jump start.

I don't see cheap guitars as competition for the quality builders. Instead the more people who get their hands on a bar the better. In my case I started with a 2X4 kit, then moved up to a cheap Chinese 8-string then got guitar crazy for a time. I had two steel guitars built for me and bought another three off the forum.

[Dave Stroud]

I took a class for 3D modeling as part of my engineering degree. I majored in civil, so the only thing I’ve used that class for is designing steel guitar parts.

Cost is an issue with getting parts made. I wanted longer pedals made for my Franklin. Xometry quoted $380 for 9, and $530 for 18. I’d be willing to design parts and share files if we can get multiple people to go in on one order to keep costs low. Of course we would all need to decide on one design, but I could do the designing if the order is large enough to make it worth while.

[J D Sauser]

To have a place or sticky here on this forum would be a great idea for sharing Line drawings - Dimensions - …

Great idea!

There’ya go: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 88#3143888

… JD

[Samuel Phillippe]

This a very interesting read with a lot of good engineering/business comments.
I can agree with each and every comment made BUT.... I was once told by the president of our company that, and I quote, "We do what we do best and pay for what they do best"!!!!! so for me, if I need a part that is tight tolerance machined, I'll buy it, if it is a simple machined part within my capabilities I'll make it.
I guess that means that so many, like me, wouldn't need the shared CAD files, but those who want to spend the time and money for one or two replacement parts, go for it.
Just my humble opinion.
Sam

[Jerry Dragon]

I was a CNC programmer for over thirty years and a machinist over 50 years. I made pedals, bell cranks, pickup housings etc. I had the pedals down to eight minutes. I thought of posting the programs here and even discussed it with the site owner. These were all state of the art machines, 12000 rpm with spindle coolant through together with carbide tooling. I started to write out instruction sheets etc and the deeper I got into it the more reluctant I became. One wrong instruction in the setup sheets or one wrong decimal point in a coordinate and someone could get killed, so I gave up the idea. I wasn't looking for any compensation. I am retired, I have the programs but can't remember if they were fully proven out or if I had made changes at the machine. Then I would have had to figure out from the G code how I set it up and order of operations and it all got to be too much like work lol.
I had folks send me a part, take the measurements and make the parts. I can program on screen and if the parts were simple enough I would just write them on screen. If not, I would draw them in Mastercam, then program them. Most of the time I didn't need a solid, just a 2D if only one or two ops. If more I would turn it into a solid and go from there.

[J D Sauser]

I was a CNC programmer for over thirty years and a machinist over 50 years. I made pedals, bell cranks, pickup housings etc. I had the pedals down to eight minutes. I thought of posting the programs here and even discussed it with the site owner. These were all state of the art machines, 12000 rpm with spindle coolant through together with carbide tooling. I started to write out instruction sheets etc and the deeper I got into it the more reluctant I became. One wrong instruction in the setup sheets or one wrong decimal point in a coordinate and someone could get killed, so I gave up the idea. I wasn't looking for any compensation. I am retired, I have the programs but can't remember if they were fully proven out or if I had made changes at the machine. Then I would have had to figure out from the G code how I set it up and order of operations and it all got to be too much like work lol.
I had folks send me a part, take the measurements and make the parts. I can program on screen and if the parts were simple enough I would just write them on screen. If not, I would draw them in Mastercam, then program them. Most of the time I didn't need a solid, just a 2D if only one or two ops. If more I would turn it into a solid and go from there.

Is the last part an offer, Jerry?


Interesting story! Just reminds me of how old I am.
I was last class to graduate precision machine engineering in Switzerland on pantograph drafting tables. The university just had taken delivery of the first batch of CAD computers one plotter and a big standalone CNC milling machine for (fasten your seat belts) 1 Million Swiss Franks. Today, one can get a much more powerfull complete rig for less than $20’000 of today’s depreciated money.
I graduated being sentenced to be “engineerical drift wood”, but being able to “construct lines” has heped me my whole life.

I am in the process of picking up again on a PSG design I prototyped 23 years ago.
I have been trying some 3-D modeling software, but I still seem to think of line-construction, sketching etc.
Eventually, it WILL have to become a digitalized project because fabrication/tooling is all over the place.

So, thus again my question: are you offering your services?

Thanks!… JD.

[Jerry Dragon]

I don't know what you mean by services? I no longer have access to machines or a shop. I don't have any CADCAM software. The only service I could give is helping out with how to go about machining a part or help with code or how to turn a one part program into a multiple part program without using a computer. Stuff like that. When I made the parts I made I didn't make them one at a time. I usually had four vises set up with sometimes two parts per vise depending on the size of the parts.