Old ShoBud and U12 Copedant

[John Egenes]

Hello,
I've had my older (1975) ShoBud made by Duane Marrs for a long time now. It's an S12 with 4 & 4. It has an Extended E9 setup that I've been thinking of changing to a U12 setup. Have been looking at various copedants but haven't seen any that would work with my limited setup of 4X4. Is this a workable idea?

I need to pull the guitar apart and clean it thoroughly, so I figured I might rethink my pedal & knee setups. It's basically a "normal" E9 setup right now, and it would be nice not to change it too drastically.

Also, I'm wondering if there's an E string lock to keep it lowered for B6, or am I stuck using my knee lever? I don't want to butcher the guitar up too much, but am not afraid to install something underneath. It has been modified over the years (before I got it).

Any suggestions are appreciated. Bear in mind that I'm in New Zealand, so the cost of shipping parts is usually more than the parts themselves [grin]. Mostly, I'm just looking for ideas to combine the "Ninth" and "Sixth" tunings a bit better. Thanks.

--john

[Rick Abbott]

How attached to your D string are you? Most universals put the B as the 9th string and have a G# on 10, E on 11 and B on 12. The 9th string gets pulled up to D.

I have considered doing a universal-like tuning on a 10 string. I'd have 4 knees and 5 pedals. ABC pedals and the 5th and 6th pedals of the C6 standard changes as the other two pedals. I would put the E-lower on the RKR so it's easy to hold while using the volume pedal. I have had two Carter U-12's set up that way. If I could only have one pedal I would add the pedal the lowers the middle E to D# and raises the high E to F. That's a standard C6, 6th pedal change.

I think you could do a lot with that.

[Dave Meis]

You could de-tune the Es a half step...

[Ian Worley]

You can cover a lot with 4/4 if you're willing to take a slightly unconventional approach. Here is a 10 string universal copedent that gets all the standard E9 changes and most of basic C6 string 1-8 pedal changes with 4 pedals and 4 knees. Open tuning is just the first 10 strings of a typical uni, so no D on 9. It works well with the E lowers on the left knee, there is no big reach to the right required for the extra uni pedals. This setup has no C pedal, the string 4 F# is on RKL. The last pedal, "P3", is C6 P5, you could also add the P5 raises for your strings 11 & 12 here too. There is no P8, you have to half-pedal the A pedal to mimic that change on string 9, no boo-wah on 12. You could add the string 9 C raise to RKL, but it might start to get fairly stiff. With one more pedal or lever you could certainly expand those options, or retain the C pedal if you can't live without it. Adding the B>A# lower on a vertical is very useful too, if you have it on string 9 too you can split it with an extra rod as another way to get that P8 C note. Using the vertical like that is easier if the E lowers are on the opposite knee.


I don't know if this is the sort of thing you're after, but there is a fuller explanation of the rationale behind it here if you're interested: https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 30#3047730. I'm sure no matter what you would need to tweak something like this around to suit your playing style, but perhaps this will give you some food for thought.

[John Egenes]

Rick Abbott
Ian Worley

Rick & Ian: Thanks so much for some great information. I'm not very attached to the D string, so I'm likely to to do away with it. Other suggestions are spot on, and I'll be looking closely at them.

Ian, thanks for the copedant chart. It's really helpful, especially since it uses my hardware setup. I looked at the forum post you linked, and I've copy/pasted your post into a text file for later use. Very helpful.

I've been thinking of shifting my pedals over and creating a zero pedal. Right now, my 4th pedal isn't really doing anything. I disconnected it a while back due to some issues with the mechanism (a major reason for the overhaul). So, I'm likely to have a "normal" ABC setup with an added Zero pedal, as you have listed. Right now my 4 knee levers are:

LKL: 4 & 8: E to F
LKR: 4 & 8: E to D#
RKL: 1 & 7: F# to G#
RKR: 2: D# to D (no E string change)

My RKR has a crudely made 1/2 stop on it (D# to D, to C#), and I think I can improve it so it works better. As it is, it's too difficult to use accurately, so I have the lever set for D# to D.

I'm looking forward to taxing my brain with some changes. I play a lot of different instruments and it's always a challenge when I pick up a new one. A shift in pedals and levers, with a new copedant, will be like playing a new one. God help me [grin]. I'm cleaning up an area in my garage workshop to do this (been busy building B Bender guitars...), so I'm hoping to dive into it in the next couple of weeks. Will keep you posted. Thanks again for the great info. It's exactly what I'm looking for.

best, --john

[Patrick Edwards]

I found this at steelguitar.com under ask Bud (Carter)
Sorry my picture of the page omitted some of his explanation.

[John Egenes]

Patrick:
Thanks for this. It's very helpful.
best, --je

[b0b]

I found this at steelguitar.com under ask Bud (Carter)
Sorry my picture of the page omitted some of his explanation.

Question:
Is there a universal tuning I can use for an older model S-12 that only has double-raise, double-lower capabilities??

Answer:
Yes, here is one way to do it. While it will do most everything that Jeff Newman's tuning does, it only requires a Double-Raise/Double-Lower mechanism. Since it requires only 5 pedals, normal knee lever spacing may be used and an extra long veritical lever is not needed. The C Pedal equivalent is A+B+RKL. The Pedal 6 equivalent is acheived by engaging LKR, while releasing RKL. (With Triple-Raise/Triple or Double-Lower, P6 raises String 4 back to E and lowers String 8 to D.)

Thanks to Ron Bear for the basic idea and setup, which we have modified.
[tab] Open Pedals Knee Levers
Tuning 1 2 3 4 5 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
------------------------------------------------------------------
F# (G)*
Eb D C#
G# A
E F F# Eb
B C# C# Bb
G# A A#
F# F
E F D Eb
B C# C
G# A
E Eb F F
B G# C#
------------------------------------------------------------------
[/tab]

I think there's a typo. It should say "The Pedal 6 equivalent is achieved by engaging LKR, while releasing RKR."

[John Egenes]

Thanks, B0b. And thanks for the correction. I probably would have spent hours, scratching my head [grin].

[Andrew Frost]

Perhaps something like this would work...





Having string 8 lower from E to D on RR gives you the missing E9th D string, and also works as B6 p6. Your diminished 'pedals' are then RR+p4.
This RR lever also allows you to have a D6 voicing combined with the B pedal, from which your A pedal will create a p4 sound by introducing the major 7 raise ( B to C#). The boo wah p8 is on RL.

Another route would be tweak the C pedal to be more like p7, raising string 5&6 up to A# and C#.

Just food for thought. Good luck with it.

[John Egenes]

Thanks, Andrew. This looks pretty good. I'll give it some thought.
best, --john