C13 with D on top

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Yes I’m into another tuning experiment phase!

I’m looking for the perfect C6 to me. I need something that work for Western swing but also country.

I’m currently messing with the JM C6/A7 with is great for Western swing but I want something that will really give me a pedal steel sound.

This is the tuning I get: BbEGACEGD

It’s simply the Bobby Ingano 7 strings C13 with an added D strings on top.

I think the top D strings is great too emulate some fast single notes run you get in pedal steel plus some cool chords.

What you guys think of that tuning?

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

I realized that this tuning is really a mix of Jules Ah See and Billy Robinson’s C6 which make lot of sense to me!

[Mike Neer]

I think the C above Bb is more important than having the D on top. I would replace the G on top with the D, personally. The way I do it is simply to lower the E to D on Jules C13.

[Jim Kaznosky]

I get the Bb below. What does the D on top give? Sorry for butting in, but I'm working on 8 string tunings myself.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

I think the C above Bb is more important than having the D on top. I would replace the G on top with the D, personally. The way I do it is simply to lower the E to D on Jules C13.

Yes Mike, after playing this tuning for a couple hours I realized that I miss the low C and that the high D is great on paper but having both high G and D is confusing. I’m back to the Bobby Ingano / Junior Brown C13.

So I’m now debating on high G C13 and JM C6/A7.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

I get the Bb below. What does the D on top give? Sorry for butting in, but I'm working on 8 string tunings myself.

It’s came from Buddy Emmons I think, it give the 9th degree, mostly a pedal steel thing. I think having both high G and D is too much, I had to choose and choose G.

[David Cook]

I find this tuning great for country. lo to hi ACEGACED maybe with Bb on bottom.
Although I have been using Tom Morrell's 10 string tuning in E lately

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

I find this tuning great for country. lo to hi ACEGACED maybe with Bb on bottom.
Although I have been using Tom Morrell's 10 string tuning in E lately

Yes that’s a great C6 but I’m now used to the high G, it’s great for Western swing and some slant are great for pedal steel sound.

Tom Morrel 10 strings is great but 8 strings is the more my brain can manage I think!

[Mike Neer]

Yeah, having the G and D kind of defeats the original purpose. Buddy replaced the G with the D. He used it in order to able to play fast runs, for one thing, but in transcribing some of his solos where he was using that tuning, I found he used it very little. He may have had specific little patterns he worked out for it. It’s not all that intuitive—definitely takes some work to employ it.

I like the D sometimes instead of the E for several reasons, but remember I don’t use a G on top. The D helps me play quartal chords, adds another major 2nd interval for soloing, which if you’ve ever seen my Bebop book, so much can be accomplished just on two strings tuned a major 2nd apart. With Jules C13 tuned with the D on top, it gives me 3 pairs of 2nds. But everyone has a different need.

[Jerry Gleason]

Having a D on top of the eight string C6 tuning would be of more benefit, I think, to pedal steel players who use that and have already incorporated it into their playing. I have tuned that way to record a particular part occasionally, but I don't think I'd use it much overall. Personally, I think that the high G is more useful to cover a wide range of styles, especially with that Bb on the bottom. The main drawback of it, for many people, is the thinner sound of that G string. I have always maintained that the high G works best on a short scale guitar, where you can use a heavier string with more mass, and it doesn’t sound as thin.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Having a D on top of the eight string C6 tuning would be of more benefit, I think, to pedal steel players who use that and have already incorporated it into their playing. I have tuned that way to record a particular part occasionally, but I don't think I'd use it much overall. Personally, I think that the high G is more useful to cover a wide range of styles, especially with that Bb on the bottom. The main drawback of it, for many people, is the thinner sound of that G string. I have always maintained that the high G works best on a short scale guitar, where you can use a heavier string with more mass, and it doesn’t sound as thin.

Totally agree! The high G work well on my Fender 22.5 scale but not so great on longer scale. Also the thinner sound is kind of a good thing to me because I want to get some pedal steel sound with my country band.

[Stefan Robertson]

Try dropping he high G to a low G or C below the Bb.

Keep the high D as its not only used for single note stuff but also chord melody playing eg. Cherokee and many others.

The high E is also debatable you could try dropping it below the Bb as a low E or eb or C

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Try dropping he high G to a low G or C below the Bb.

Keep the high D as its not only used for single note stuff but also chord melody playing eg. Cherokee and many others.

The high E is also debatable you could try dropping it below the Bb as a low E or eb or C

I used the Jules Ah See’s C13 with the .70 bass C string for many years but for the bands I currently play with the high G is more useful.

[Allan Revich]

Try dropping he high G to a low G or C below the Bb.

Keep the high D as its not only used for single note stuff but also chord melody playing eg. Cherokee and many others.

The high E is also debatable you could try dropping it below the Bb as a low E or eb or C

I used the Jules Ah See’s C13 with the .70 bass C string for many years but for the bands I currently play with the high G is more useful.

So, back to the basic CEGACE with a Bb on the bottom, and a G on the top. BbCEGACEG?

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

So, back to the basic CEGACE with a Bb on the bottom, and a G on the top. BbCEGACEG?

Yep good old Junior Brown C13!

[Stefan Robertson]

Yeah, having the G and D kind of defeats the original purpose. Buddy replaced the G with the D. He used it in order to able to play fast runs, for one thing, but in transcribing some of his solos where he was using that tuning, I found he used it very little. He may have had specific little patterns he worked out for it. It’s not all that intuitive—definitely takes some work to employ it.

I like the D sometimes instead of the E for several reasons, but remember I don’t use a G on top. The D helps me play quartal chords, adds another major 2nd interval for soloing, which if you’ve ever seen my Bebop book, so much can be accomplished just on two strings tuned a major 2nd apart. With Jules C13 tuned with the D on top, it gives me 3 pairs of 2nds. But everyone has a different need.

As an E13 with the 9th on top player - Buddy uses the D for solos but also chord melody, sus4 chords and passing chord voicings that have a grating effect due to conflicting harmony. The high and the low 9th in a 13th tuning or on pedal steel can be exploited to achieve those tense angst ridden clashing passing chords. No other way without it. I love the Emmons/Jernigan clashing passing chord voicings. Very steel like clashing feel. Unless you know its hard for the ear to differentiate what type of chord it is. Tom Morrell used this a lot as well.

[Andy DePaule]

Hi Jean-Sebastien,
I have one of my two Clinesmith Aluminum steels tuned to E6th with the F# on top.
Bottom up: B E G# B C# E G# F#
Like Don Helms tuning on the 4 high strings not counting the 1st string.
I do like the single note runs this makes available

Have it that way to be able to play a lot of 6th stuff as well as getting some pedal steel changes with forward & back slants.
It's kind of a neat thing, but the truth is I spend a lot more time with the short scale A6. I tune that with the low 8th string in E. Easy to change back to F# if needed.
Think I'd get along fine with 7 string and skip the low note.

I've only played lap steels for about 5 years so you might take what I say with a grain of salt.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Thanks for the suggestions but after a month of experiments I fallen in the obscure side of the steel and bought a Fender 400 pedal steel.

I wanted to have the tone and playability of a fender lap steel but I also wanted that Mooney sound really bad. I would like to be able to play like Chris Scruggs and didn’t need pedals but I sure don’t have is tallent and experience.

These days what I listen and I’m after is on the E9 side : Waylon Jennings (Ralph Mooney) and Caleb Klauder (Rusty Blake). I also listen a lot of Herb Remington.

With my tuning I get of course the E9 sound but also a full A6, some E13 and some C#m7 so I can play Herb Remington stuff.

I should probably not talk about pedals there but that’s what I found best for me and for what I need now.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

I finally go back to C13, like always!!!!

I found a way that I can play the guitar non pedal with my usual tuning but can get some country pedal steel with my 400’s pedals.

So that’s finally set!

[Aaron Clinton]

Hi Jean-Sebastien, Still Isaac's up in the top corner but everything else C6 pedal steel has to offer.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Thanks Aaron, make lot of sense But the funny part is that after all that craziness, I finally decided today to very simply tuned the 400 to top 8 E9 tuning and tuned my lap steel to Jules Ah See C13! It feel home and work just perfect!

I guess you didn't need reinvent the wheel, some genius have done this before!