Hi everyone, wanted to introduce myself and say hi - I'm a new member here, as well as being a producer/guitarist/all-around-music-person in Ontario, Canada.
I'm looking to get into pedal steel and am just scouring the internet for options.
My question is - what makes someone outgrow an 'entry level' instrument like a Brisco Bud or a Justice S10 Jr, for example? Why would someone say "okay now it's time to upgrade".
Just trying to balance my newbie-ness and the expense of the instrument vs. my "buy nice or buy twice" instinct, if that makes sense, haha.
Obviously I don't need (and can't afford!) a $5000 instrument... but my hope is to get a lifelong instrument to record and gig with with.
Appreciate any advice!
Outgrowing an entry-level PSG?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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Devon Lougheed
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Mitch Ellis
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Hi Devon, and welcome to the forum!
What makes a person "outgrow" an instrument is when their musical capabilities go above the instruments musical capabilities. A really skilled player can do a LOT with only three pedals and one knee lever. But certain "licks" simply require more than that IF you want to play them exactly the way they were recorded. If you want to play note changes that you can hear in your head, but your instrument can't produce them, you have "outgrown" your instrument. It is then time for another one that has more musical options. Good luck and have fun!
Mitch
What makes a person "outgrow" an instrument is when their musical capabilities go above the instruments musical capabilities. A really skilled player can do a LOT with only three pedals and one knee lever. But certain "licks" simply require more than that IF you want to play them exactly the way they were recorded. If you want to play note changes that you can hear in your head, but your instrument can't produce them, you have "outgrown" your instrument. It is then time for another one that has more musical options. Good luck and have fun!
Mitch
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Tony Prior
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Its a good valid question- What does outgrowing an instrument actually mean ? Can we outgrow a 6 string guitar, a Piano or a 4 or 5 string Bass ?
I doubt it !
But we can theoretically outgrow a basic Pedal Steel, 3 peds 1 or 2 levers. Why? because they are mechanical.
Outgrowing doesn't mean we can't perform on a simple set up ( 3+1 ) we certainly can, but adding a few levers ( E9th) allows us the flexibility to add phrasing that we can indeed grow into.
Meaning we can add phrasing in redundant positions as we now have the ability to RAISE or LOWER additional notes "mechanically". This is perhaps why in many circles established players recommend an E9th Pedal Steel with 3 peds and 5 Levers . The music is sitting there waiting for us !
Its like a guitar player who learns using 2 fingers then all of a sudden recognizes that they can become a 3 or 4 finger player. MORE NOTES !
Upgrading is good, but knowing WHY we are upgrading comes first , otherwise we will upgrade and still be back where we were on the basic instrument.
I doubt it !
But we can theoretically outgrow a basic Pedal Steel, 3 peds 1 or 2 levers. Why? because they are mechanical.
Outgrowing doesn't mean we can't perform on a simple set up ( 3+1 ) we certainly can, but adding a few levers ( E9th) allows us the flexibility to add phrasing that we can indeed grow into.
Meaning we can add phrasing in redundant positions as we now have the ability to RAISE or LOWER additional notes "mechanically". This is perhaps why in many circles established players recommend an E9th Pedal Steel with 3 peds and 5 Levers . The music is sitting there waiting for us !
Its like a guitar player who learns using 2 fingers then all of a sudden recognizes that they can become a 3 or 4 finger player. MORE NOTES !
Upgrading is good, but knowing WHY we are upgrading comes first , otherwise we will upgrade and still be back where we were on the basic instrument.
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 8 and Pro Tools 12
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 8 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
Pro Tools 8 and Pro Tools 12
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 8 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
There are different aspects to the idea of outgrowing an instrument. The easier view is where the instrument is limited in design and cannot do everything that you might eventually want of it. The day you confront the wish to get from 'here' to 'there' and find that it can't do it is one of the days you might want to consider the upgrade. Although there is a lot to gain from finding other ways to get there because there are always multiple paths.
But another aspect is the one where you are an experienced musician and you already know and appreciate what a fine instrument is (although you wouldn't have been able to know this with a new thing like a pedal steel guitar) and you know that what you have in your starter guitar is simply not a 'fine instrument'. The starter has perhaps served its purpose of providing a lower cost entry while you figure out if you were cut out to play this thing. Then you find that you take to it and you feel like you deserve better than this lower-level model (which has served its purpose well).
I note that the Brisco Bud looks a lot like a Carter-Starter (Al Brisco owns the stock of surplus parts from Carter, I believe). Perhaps it is upgraded? I know nothing about them.
The Carter-Starter is a case in point of a guitar made as cheaply as possible in order to be sold as cheaply as possible. And with one exception, they work well. But IMO they are a great example of the idea that once your feet are wet and you know that this is for you, there is no mistaking them for a fine musical instrument or a fine machine (don't mistake my intentions -- they are not junk!)
I like the idea of rewarding oneself with an upgrade that feels better to play, looks better, sounds better, not because you need it but because you understand the difference and you deserve it.
But another aspect is the one where you are an experienced musician and you already know and appreciate what a fine instrument is (although you wouldn't have been able to know this with a new thing like a pedal steel guitar) and you know that what you have in your starter guitar is simply not a 'fine instrument'. The starter has perhaps served its purpose of providing a lower cost entry while you figure out if you were cut out to play this thing. Then you find that you take to it and you feel like you deserve better than this lower-level model (which has served its purpose well).
I note that the Brisco Bud looks a lot like a Carter-Starter (Al Brisco owns the stock of surplus parts from Carter, I believe). Perhaps it is upgraded? I know nothing about them.
The Carter-Starter is a case in point of a guitar made as cheaply as possible in order to be sold as cheaply as possible. And with one exception, they work well. But IMO they are a great example of the idea that once your feet are wet and you know that this is for you, there is no mistaking them for a fine musical instrument or a fine machine (don't mistake my intentions -- they are not junk!)
I like the idea of rewarding oneself with an upgrade that feels better to play, looks better, sounds better, not because you need it but because you understand the difference and you deserve it.
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Devon Lougheed
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Thanks for the thoughts, everyone! Very useful.
My instinct has been to try and get a good price on a decent pro or intermediate model, but the Bud was tempting due to proximity and price.
My other option is a just-serviced MSA Classic S10 from the 70s that a pal probably has coming available. Hard to pick between them without having played either... and without truly knowing what I'm doing yet! Haha.
My instinct has been to try and get a good price on a decent pro or intermediate model, but the Bud was tempting due to proximity and price.
My other option is a just-serviced MSA Classic S10 from the 70s that a pal probably has coming available. Hard to pick between them without having played either... and without truly knowing what I'm doing yet! Haha.
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David Rattray
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Hello Devon not sure how to approach this ...but here goes when you can play somewhat like Lloyd Green / Al Brisco ...ask yourself this question ...I seriously doubt that you will outgrow a Bud...or other well made steel 3&4....this is a rabbit hole once entered escape is most always impossible ...slide over and see Al and get ready to be amazed...best ...David...
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Eric Philippsen
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Welcome to the world of steel guitar, Devon.
What others have said is spot-on. I might add a couple things. One, you have to be careful in buying a used pedal steel. Don’t get me wrong, save for a Zum Encore, I don’t think I’ve ever bought a new steel but some steels can have design or setup problems that you, as a newbie, won’t see until later. Some have had such a rough life that they need to be refurbished. Case in point, I got an older classic Sho-Bud LDG that needed a lot of my hours to get back to where it needed to be. But the results were astounding.
Second, don’t get caught in the mindset that “the more knee levers the better.” A 3-pedal, 4- knee lever, single-10 pedal steel covers a huge amount of bases and is arguably all you’ll need.
Last, the big question, what model? You’ll get 10 thousand replies and opinions on that. Given that, here’s my two cents learned after 50 years of playing. Just like a Tele, Strat, Les Paul, or 335 are classic mainstays in the 6-string world there are corresponding ones in our world, too. You really can’t go wrong with a single neck, pro-model Emmons, a Sho-Bud LDG or the higher-end models of established steel-guitar makers. In my opinion, the Zum Encore made by Doug Ernest is a great steel that really never loses its value. You’ll have to put your name on his waiting list but just do it. When you get it after the wait you’ll be glad you did.
What others have said is spot-on. I might add a couple things. One, you have to be careful in buying a used pedal steel. Don’t get me wrong, save for a Zum Encore, I don’t think I’ve ever bought a new steel but some steels can have design or setup problems that you, as a newbie, won’t see until later. Some have had such a rough life that they need to be refurbished. Case in point, I got an older classic Sho-Bud LDG that needed a lot of my hours to get back to where it needed to be. But the results were astounding.
Second, don’t get caught in the mindset that “the more knee levers the better.” A 3-pedal, 4- knee lever, single-10 pedal steel covers a huge amount of bases and is arguably all you’ll need.
Last, the big question, what model? You’ll get 10 thousand replies and opinions on that. Given that, here’s my two cents learned after 50 years of playing. Just like a Tele, Strat, Les Paul, or 335 are classic mainstays in the 6-string world there are corresponding ones in our world, too. You really can’t go wrong with a single neck, pro-model Emmons, a Sho-Bud LDG or the higher-end models of established steel-guitar makers. In my opinion, the Zum Encore made by Doug Ernest is a great steel that really never loses its value. You’ll have to put your name on his waiting list but just do it. When you get it after the wait you’ll be glad you did.
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Bob Hoffnar
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Another thing to consider is that the pedalsteel is mechanical and often starter steels are just not very well made. Levers need to have solid stops to be tune able , fretboards need to be accurate, pickups need to be quiet enough to record and a bunch more subtle things. Be careful with “vintage” steels. They are pretty but often not playable without a ton of work, Sho Buds in particular were made with real,crap pot metal that is brittle for a bunch of years. And the rack and barrel mechanism they used for years leaves a lot to be desired. A pro can make any steel sound good but they don’t. Start by not relating any guitar knowledge to a steel purchase. It’s a very different ball game.
Bob
It's worth pointing out that the 70's MSA Classic S10 is a pro instrument. Mechanically, they are solid, reliable, and do (or can be made to do) everything a modern steel does. The most common complaints are the weight and darker tone than is currently popular. For these reasons, they typically sell for less than other comparably equipped instruments....making them a good deal for beginners. Buying a 50 yr old steel can be risky, but this one was "just serviced" and owned by a friend. At the right price, this could be an excellent choice to start on.Devon Lougheed wrote: My other option is a just-serviced MSA Classic S10 from the 70s that a pal probably has coming available. Hard to pick between them without having played either... and without truly knowing what I'm doing yet! Haha.
To answer the first part of your question about when to upgrade, If you bought the MSA Classic, it's a quality instrument that will do everything you want it to. If not, parts are still available, so you can even add levers and pedals. The desire to upgrade would be when you want to start chasing "better" tone.
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Andy Henriksen
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I've been playing for 3 or 4 years, and I'm not very good, but I might be in a good spot to answer your question.
I started with a well-regarded entry-level S10 guitar, and a year or so later added a Fessenden SD10 to the herd, mostly because I wanted one guitar for home and one to keep in the band practice space.
I am now looking to replace the first with something more in line with the Fessy, which seems like a truly pro guitar to my inexperienced hands and ears.
The Fessy feels much more solid, whereas the other one feels a bit flimsy - like if I bump a knee lever wrong, it's gonna bend or snap easily. Also, the SD10 platform is more stable, so the guitar doesn't wiggle around as much.
While I can't articulate the difference, the all-pull changer feels nicer/more responsive than the pull-release changer, and it offers more copedent options - half stops on the 1st and 2nd string, etc.
The Fessy has a LKV lever that I never use, but that's partly because the other guitar doesn't have it and I want to be able to play my stuff the same on both guitars, so I don't think to use it much. But, if I had only one guitar (or 2 with that lever), I'd enjoy incorporating it more. Each additional pedal or lever doesn't just add one thing, it adds a bunch of stuff, based on how you combine it with other levers and pedals. Yes, you can stay busy learning for a lifetime with just 3+2, but 4 levers adds so much more, and 5 gets almost to be too many options!
I also really like the deeper SD10 body because it puts my legs in a more natural place under the guitar. And the arm pad is surprisingly helpful in keeping your hands where they belong and keeping everything comfortable.
Oh, and tone. They both sound good, but the Fessy is clearer and fuller, whereas the other sounds more thin. Might be 100% just the pickups, but still, it's a factor, and would require effort and money to upgrade.
There's probably more.
That all said, you'll probably end up buying and selling a few guitars along the way, no matter how careful you are selecting your first one, so don't overthink it too much. Get a good, solid guitar that you can afford, and after a few years you'll know what you like and don't like, and probably will be ready to buy again from a place of personal experience and preference.
I started with a well-regarded entry-level S10 guitar, and a year or so later added a Fessenden SD10 to the herd, mostly because I wanted one guitar for home and one to keep in the band practice space.
I am now looking to replace the first with something more in line with the Fessy, which seems like a truly pro guitar to my inexperienced hands and ears.
The Fessy feels much more solid, whereas the other one feels a bit flimsy - like if I bump a knee lever wrong, it's gonna bend or snap easily. Also, the SD10 platform is more stable, so the guitar doesn't wiggle around as much.
While I can't articulate the difference, the all-pull changer feels nicer/more responsive than the pull-release changer, and it offers more copedent options - half stops on the 1st and 2nd string, etc.
The Fessy has a LKV lever that I never use, but that's partly because the other guitar doesn't have it and I want to be able to play my stuff the same on both guitars, so I don't think to use it much. But, if I had only one guitar (or 2 with that lever), I'd enjoy incorporating it more. Each additional pedal or lever doesn't just add one thing, it adds a bunch of stuff, based on how you combine it with other levers and pedals. Yes, you can stay busy learning for a lifetime with just 3+2, but 4 levers adds so much more, and 5 gets almost to be too many options!
I also really like the deeper SD10 body because it puts my legs in a more natural place under the guitar. And the arm pad is surprisingly helpful in keeping your hands where they belong and keeping everything comfortable.
Oh, and tone. They both sound good, but the Fessy is clearer and fuller, whereas the other sounds more thin. Might be 100% just the pickups, but still, it's a factor, and would require effort and money to upgrade.
There's probably more.
That all said, you'll probably end up buying and selling a few guitars along the way, no matter how careful you are selecting your first one, so don't overthink it too much. Get a good, solid guitar that you can afford, and after a few years you'll know what you like and don't like, and probably will be ready to buy again from a place of personal experience and preference.
Last edited by Andy Henriksen on 12 Jul 2022 4:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Larry Jamieson
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Devon, I started out with an MSA Semi-Classic, 3 pedals, one knee lever. It was a well made, pro level guitar and I got so I could play a lot of music on it. But, I was always hearing things that I could not play, or could not easily play. So, I bought a guitar with 4 knees and 3 pedals. This opened up a whole new world of possibilities. Wish I done that years sooner.
I have owned several steels over the years. A Pro level guitar works well, sits still when you move a knee lever, stays in tune well, and has easy to push pedals and levers. Some guitars I owned sounded good, but were too much work to play. If possible, sit down at the guitar you are looking at. Try the pedals and levers to see how they work, how easily they work, and if the guitar stays stable when it is being played. Good luck finding a guitar that works for you within your budget.
I have owned several steels over the years. A Pro level guitar works well, sits still when you move a knee lever, stays in tune well, and has easy to push pedals and levers. Some guitars I owned sounded good, but were too much work to play. If possible, sit down at the guitar you are looking at. Try the pedals and levers to see how they work, how easily they work, and if the guitar stays stable when it is being played. Good luck finding a guitar that works for you within your budget.
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Devon Lougheed
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Devon Lougheed
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Larry Dering
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Steve Leal
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Great advise you all!
My first pedal steel was a left handed Pro 1 Shobud. It was a gorgeous guitair and sounded nice, but the levers were made of pot metal and I broke at least two of them with light use. I’d make sure you get a steel that has durable parts underneath. You also will want the all pull changer to have 3 raises and 2 lowers. This will give you more flexibility and options when reconfiguring the levers/rods. Also, make sure that the leg heights and pedal rod heights are good for your height. I agree that SD10 is much better than S10 as far as stability, comfort, and sound goes. Make sure that you can acquire spare parts that are compatible as well.
Good luck with your search. Let us know what you go with!
Cheers,
Steve
My first pedal steel was a left handed Pro 1 Shobud. It was a gorgeous guitair and sounded nice, but the levers were made of pot metal and I broke at least two of them with light use. I’d make sure you get a steel that has durable parts underneath. You also will want the all pull changer to have 3 raises and 2 lowers. This will give you more flexibility and options when reconfiguring the levers/rods. Also, make sure that the leg heights and pedal rod heights are good for your height. I agree that SD10 is much better than S10 as far as stability, comfort, and sound goes. Make sure that you can acquire spare parts that are compatible as well.
Good luck with your search. Let us know what you go with!
Cheers,
Steve
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Chris Brooks
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Yes! This assumes it's a 3x4 setup. (Levers can be added) Another advantage to the MSA is that it won't depreciate....you'll always be able to get your money back when/if you sell it.Chris Brooks wrote:My other option is a just-serviced MSA Classic S10 from the 70s
Get the MSA, Devon! Solid, dependable. You can play it all your life.
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Bob Hoffnar
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Another yes on the MSA !Tommy Mc wrote:Yes! This assumes it's a 3x4 setup. (Levers can be added) Another advantage to the MSA is that it won't depreciate....you'll always be able to get your money back when/if you sell it.Chris Brooks wrote:My other option is a just-serviced MSA Classic S10 from the 70s
Get the MSA, Devon! Solid, dependable. You can play it all your life.
Bob
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D Schubert
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My views have evolved over decades of buying, selling, and trading. This is one constant: You should always consider the next owner when you buy an expensive instrument, because chances are you'll find something even better down the road. And you'll have to sell/trade what you already have to get it. In this case a desirable, upgradeable pro steel with 3&4 is the way to go.
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Devon Lougheed
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Chris Brooks
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Michael Rademacher
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I am also a new player with no PSG yet. I just ordered a Rittenberry 4x4, thinking along the lines of not having to upgrade it later. If I never have another PSG, this one will take me just as far as my talent will allow me to go. One and done. Plus, I know that the mechanics of playing a pro-level instrument make it much easier to learn with and will prevent some frustration. That is why I have two made-in-America Strats and one made-in-Mexico 'Player Strat'. Yes I could have bought a lower model Strat but the extra attention to details, and in many cases, better components, on a nicer instrument make the playing experience more pleasurable and you can focus on learning the instrument and not focus on making it work better. If it is easier to play, you will spend more time playing it, therefore become a better player. Those are my thoughts as a guitar player moving into the PSG world.
Shijie/Gretsch/Taylor
Rittenberry SD10 Prestige 4x4 almost ready!
Rittenberry SD10 Prestige 4x4 almost ready!
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Andrew Goulet
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Devon Lougheed
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Sadly the MSA deal has fallen through. The Brisco "Bud" 3&4 is still around, and may be my best option. Pedal steels are really hard to find in Canada... but the general consensus here seems to be to search for a used pro model rather than a new starter model, and that makes sense to me. I'll keep my eyes open for a bit and maybe (just maybe) cave on the Brisco.
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Andrew Goulet
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