most common key centers for 2,5,1 and 1,6,2,5

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 4 Jul 2022 2:13 pm

My 11-year old son is practicing iim, V7, IM's and IM, VI7, iim, V7's on the piano.

Evidently, on steel guitar, modulating these Sequences is as easy as moving the bar.

He started out on CMaj key centers and asked what are the most common Key Centers these Sequences are found on, to start practicing. On the piano evidently, modulating these around is not as easy as for "us".
I must say, I see 2,5,1's "everywhere... but for the sake of delaying the answer that is on the horizon ("ALL 12 keys, son!")... I came up with the diatonic minors:

- CM (diatonic iim Dm)
- DM (diatonic iim Em)
- GM (diatonic iim Am)
so far no # or b chords

any suggestions which key centers for these sequences are the most common in Jazz Standards?

WHY?: in Jazz some will temporarily modulate keyCENTERS within a progression, for certain short parts (aka. "Sequences") so to make them fit to common diatonic numbers moves.
E. g.: a progression may show a succession of iiim, VI7, IIM which can be viewed as a iim, V7, IM ("2m, 5dom, 1") modulated a whole step up from the progressions natural iim-chord position. This simplifies "learning" and knowing where to play certain phrases ('licks" or "lines") modulated all over the place.

Thanks!... J-D.

Ken Pippus · Post by **Ken Pippus** » 4 Jul 2022 4:14 pm

Completely depends on the environment. Big bands and most small group jazz plays in “horn keys”. Bb, Eb, F, C. Western Swing hits those but adds “guitar keys:” G, E, A, D.

Once you start modulating the progression through the cycle of fifths, you end up eventually needing them all!

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 4 Jul 2022 8:40 pm

Exactly what Ken says.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 5 Jul 2022 5:33 am

I agree that he will have to work up his chops in all keys... especially when thinking in such modulated terms.
I got him to play a Bebop Line over IM, VI7, iim, V7... and started over C-Major Center.. he learned over D and G in 30 mins...
I programmed an iRealPRO track D, G, C... modulating up in fourths... and he got it like "that"... It's "easy" on steel... but you got to be envious for kids.
I wished I had gotten the support for my inclination to Jazz when I was his age.

Thanks!... J-D.

Matthew Walton · Post by **Matthew Walton** » 5 Jul 2022 7:52 am

I guess for a concrete example, All The Things You Are has major ii-V-I progressions in Ab, C, Eb, G, and E. With a quick minor ii-V-i in Fm to get back to the top.

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 5 Jul 2022 5:55 pm

I would have him learn them in all 12 keys by figuring out some sort of exercise using a cycle of 5ths, or possibly a cycle of 4ths. IMHO, he might as well just jump in. I found this when I googled it and there are also quite a few You Tube videos that discuss learning 2 5 1's using the cycle of 5ths and/or cycle of 4ths. I hope this helps. https://www.freejazzlessons.com/jazz-th ... eat-sheet/

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 8 Jul 2022 10:40 am

Matthew Walton wrote:I guess for a concrete example, All The Things You Are has major ii-V-I progressions in Ab, C, Eb, G, and E. With a quick minor ii-V-i in Fm to get back to the top.

The perfect song to use for responding to the question in the OP, which struck me as a little odd.

2-5-1 progressions and licks know no stylistic or tonal center bounds. They should be learned for the different home positions (no pedals, AB down, E’s lowered) as well as for different keys, rhythms, and tempos. It is an endless process, but young people need encouragement, not intimidation and tedium. On the other hand, you can’t tell them truthfully that “these are the most important keys” because you know that’s BS. But studying and playing in 2 or 3 keys in maybe a half cycle of fifths over a two-week immersion is an achievable goal and makes learning the other keys seem more possible.

Andrew Frost · Post by **Andrew Frost** » 12 Jul 2022 9:30 pm

but for the sake of delaying the answer that is on the horizon ("ALL 12 keys, son!")...

Something I've been thinking about for ages, is getting into a yearly routine where each month has a special, prioritized focus on a different key...
You could do it systematically or randomly, it wouldn't really matter.
Lets say February is Eb month...You really prioritize the 'theme' of Eb, so you're largely thinking in Eb all month, and getting inside the key, sight-reading, learning tunes, improvising, transposing tunes into that key, whatever. Perhaps making Eb playlists so you're just right in the nuances of that tonal centre all month. Then March comes, new key, and so on. I have yet to do this, but I think it could be a cool thing. If a key has two names, you would bring them both into the fold for that month, and I guess the relative minors would be factored in if you like, or perhaps a second annual cycle could be strictly minor keys.