Bolt-on vs Cut-tail

Doug Jones · Post by **Doug Jones** » 16 Aug 2006 9:52 pm

I'm sure this topic is old hat, or should I say Derby?, but I'm curious about a few things. Is there much of a difference tonally between the two and is there really a stay in tune issue with the bolt-ons?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 16 Aug 2006 10:06 pm

To my ear there is a slight difference to the tone but they both sound better than most every other steel. There is no tuning problems with the bolt on in my experience. My feeling is that they changed the design of the Emmons because they cound save a couple manufacturing steps and then called it an improvement.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 17 Aug 2006 4:24 am

My feeling is that they changed the design of the Emmons because they cound save a couple manufacturing steps and then called it an improvement.

Good one, Bob!

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 17 Aug 2006 5:35 am

When I worked for Little Roy Wiggins music store, that was also the Nashville dealer for Emmons in the early 70's, I was told that that separating the neck from the changer was for potential tuning issues.

With the neck "separate" it could expand/contract with the temperature and not affect other parts of the guitar.

Buck Reid · Post by **Buck Reid** » 17 Aug 2006 7:58 am

The bolt-on design did present tuning issues because the changer pillars rested on top of the neck. Therefore if the neck moved due to contraction or expansion...so did the changer. The cut-tail was a better option as was wooden necks.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 17 Aug 2006 8:39 am

The whole idea behind the wraparound was separation of the changer and peghead from the necks.

I have a Bigsby guitar in which the peghead, neck, and changer mechanism are all one connected piece of aluminum, and yes, there are thermoexpansion/contraction* problems out the wazoo.

*that means the sucker goes out of tune all to hell.

The cut-tail is really only a wraparound with the back plate separated and bolted to the changer pillars, but for some reason, doesn't sound like the wraps.

However, I used to own Bob Hoffnar's bolt-on, as well as a half-dozen others, and I didn't really notice all that bad a detuning problem with any of them. Of course, the pegheads were separate from the necks, unlike the Bigsby.

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Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 17 Aug 2006 9:18 am

Herb: "The whole idea behind the wraparound was separation of the changer and peghead from the necks."

This is what seems odd to me:
If Emmons already knew about tuning problems associated with the changer mounted directly to the neck-- and that was one of the reasons for the wrap around design--why would they change the design to one which would introduce problems that they were already of aware of (as with the bolt-on design)?
I can understand the change from the bolt-on to the cut-tail to remove the tuning problems associated with the bolt-on design, but it doesn't make sense that they would design the bolt-on when they already knew that there were inherent problems with that type of design.

I would be interested to hear from bolt-on players who have actually experienced the tuning problems mentioned. It seems that people know about these problems, but I recall that most bolt-on players say that they really don't have exaggerated tuuning problems with their bolt-ons.
[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 17 August 2006 at 10:21 AM.]

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 17 Aug 2006 11:26 am

I have a lacquer Danish Brown '75 D-10 Bolt-on with wood necks. The only time I have any
tuning issues is with extreme temperature
changes like from the vehicle to the studio.
I have to let it aclimate for a while.
After that, I seldom ever need to use
a wrench on it too, as long as I don't
change string guages.
Other than that, I have no tuning issues.

Rick
www.rickjohnsoncabs.com

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 17 Aug 2006 1:17 pm

The bolt on changer with wood necks and the bolt on changer with metal necks are two different animals.

With wood necks, the changer mounts are separate from the neck.

With metal necks, the changer mounts are part of the neck.

All wood neck Emmons have bolt on changers, as far as I know.

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 17 Aug 2006 1:37 pm

I have a '66 bolt on and it is VERY touchy to temperature changes. In and out of AC is a definite problem. It makes you plan more and show up to the gig a little earlier than maybe the other guys. Once it has acclimated and the temp has leveled out it does not go out of tune. This is true with most quality instruments don't you think?

A great example was at an outdoor party I played at last month. It was very hot in July. For a time I was in the direct sunlight. WOW, it was all I could do to stay in tune from solo to solo, constantly tuning. So I got an umbrella to shade it and the tuning problem disappeared. But for a while there I was in hell.

I've heard that with some extra springs on the P/P rods that temp changes become less of a problem. The extra springs absorb the expansion and contraction of the temp changes, but I don't really know. I would like to try it, but man, what a job that would be!
[This message was edited by Garry Vanderlinde on 17 August 2006 at 04:44 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 17 Aug 2006 5:13 pm

All guitars that I ever owned had tuning issues with temperature change. I have had a Franklin, bolt on Emmons and cut tail Emmons in the same studio with the exact same conditions and they all worked fine. I have toured with my bolt on and run it from a freezing airline cargo hold straight onto hot stage lights and it was weird for a bit like any steel but settled in fine. I keep on hearing about the tuning issue with bolt ons but have never experienced any evidence of it.
I am interested in guys like Buck Reid's knowlege of the issue because they have been right in the middle of everything and certainly have a better insight into the issue than I do.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 17 Aug 2006 6:19 pm

I own two '66 Emmons bolt-on P/P's. The only time I've noticed abnormal tuning problems is when playing outdoors on a real hot day. Most of my gigs are inside so the problems with these guitars have been very minimal. And with the tone they produce (oooohyeah), it's almost worth putting up with - at least for me anyway. Nick

[This message was edited by Nick Reed on 18 October 2006 at 10:45 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 17 Aug 2006 6:34 pm

My feeling is that they changed the design of the Emmons because they cound save a couple manufacturing steps and then called it an improvement.

Now think about it.They junked the Bolt On. Except for wood necks and went back to a design that was like the original.

And yes I own both.The Bolt on is a little sweeter but stays home.

Buck Reid · Post by **Buck Reid** » 18 Aug 2006 9:45 am

Hi Bob,don't give me too much credit,there are many guys that know more about this than I. I only know that I owned a 67' bolt-on that was a great sounding guitar but climate changes did present tuning problems for me. Touring conditions are sometimes tough and any guitar is going to react but the bolt-on model seemed excessive. Changing the design and separating the necks from the changer just makes sense.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 18 Aug 2006 10:57 am

Thanks Buck for saying what I was trying to say.You explain things almost as well as you play..Nah. But a good post.

Fred Bova · Post by **Fred Bova** » 13 Oct 2006 10:00 pm

I remember seeing a player using a hair dryer to warm up his neck, keyhead, and changer before tuning for a show.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 14 Oct 2006 10:56 am

I've heard that with some extra springs on the P/P rods that temp changes become less of a problem. The extra springs absorb the expansion and contraction of the temp changes, but I don't really know. I would like to try it, but man, what a job that would be!

That is correct, and it's the best mod you can make to an Emmons' undercarriage.

Jack Kondora · Post by **Jack Kondora** » 14 Oct 2006 8:23 pm

I've played Emmons since 1966 and I've never had a problem with tuning, indoors or out!
I have always used stainless strings(GHS)
and I let the guitar reach ambient temp before checking my tuning. Once tuned, I never touch my guitar to keep it in tune! I currently play a "71" p/p D10, 9 amd 5 thatI got from Bobbe Seymour(black fatback, wood necks). It STAYS in tune all night!!!
Jack Kondora, Harrison, Arkansas

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 17 Oct 2006 1:07 am

I have no problems with keeping my two '66 bolt-ons in tune when playing indoor gigs-I usually arrive early and let it settle in to the room temp-Playing outdoor gigs is another matter-Playing in direct sunlight or in cooler temps will cause some difficulty in keeping in tune-If I know the gig is outdoors I rather take my woodneck Emmons which is seemingly more stable when exposed to the climate changes

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Oct 2006 4:57 am

In defense of Bigsby, 70 percent of these guitars were wood neck instruments, zero tuning problems.
Several of these great inovative guitars have been converted to wood neck, or wood neck inserts since new.
I am playing one now on a large percentage of my Nashville jobs and find no problems with it in any way. Light,(double neck)incredible tone, perfect tuning, beautiful and just plain fun to play!

Now to the Emmons neck designs, it hardly makes any difference, Buck Reed is slighty correct, as are some other posters, however, again, set up correctly, the "Bolt on" will stay in perfect tune. By this I mean, tighten the neck screws at the changer VERY tight, then loosten the screws along the neck underneath, loose enough that the neck can expand and contract but tight enough to keep the screws from falling out. The "Blue Locktite" will permit this.
The "Bolt on" can be as wonderful a total performer as the other models on Emmons guitar if set up correctly. Sound? Look out! Incredible, as are all P-P models.

Bobbe

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 17 Oct 2006 7:22 am

quote:
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I've heard that with some extra springs on the P/P rods that temp changes become less of a problem. The extra springs absorb the expansion and contraction of the temp changes, but I don't really know. I would like to try it, but man, what a job that would be!

I suppose any of us can learn and I hate to show my ignorance but I would love to have this thing about adding springs explained to me. What is that about?
Jerry

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 17 Oct 2006 9:59 am

bobbe...creative screw tensioning...cracks me up (rocket science)...but i read something once that mr. emmons said he also had a theory about screw tightness for tone enhancement...i have two wood neck bolt-ons and an old zum..i've found that the less unnecessary tuning, the better!

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 18 Oct 2006 12:50 am

Bobbe S-I know your defense of Bigsby to be honorable-I know you have owned many of them and had the foresight to accumulate them before anyone else cared about how valuable they would become-I would not have owned several of the eight Bigsbys that I have had if it were not for you-I still have two of them that you owned-But I disagree about your comment that 70% of Bigsby (steels) were wooden necked-Checking back on the list posted here awhile back that listed 60 or so known Bigsby steels-I believe only about a dozen or so of them to be wooden necked-that is only about 20%-and that includes the wooden neck lap steels and several console models that had metal necks converted to wooden ones

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 18 Oct 2006 1:47 pm

Paul, Paul Paul,You may well be correct Paul, I have had 22 Bigsbys, about half were wood, but I still see that you could be correct. I have never really had any problems tuning any Bigsby and keeping it in tune, but then again, I'm not very critical, Ha!
Your buddy,
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 18 October 2006 at 02:52 PM.]

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 18 Oct 2006 8:20 pm

Bobbe-22 and counting-thats alot of Bigsby's