Does adding knee levers devalue a Fender 400?

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

I am a newbie steeler who has fallen in love with the sound of the 400. I have a real nice one I bought off a forum member, and it is so pretty I would never think of modifying it.
I am thinking about getting a second one and adding a couple knee levers to it so it is an approximation of 3ABCpedal (&1 spare) 2 lever (Eb and F) basic E9 setup (not sure on the chromatic strings yet).
I have found such a 400, but it is not as beat up as I would prefer for such a project. It is a roller bridge style with sheet metal pedals, jaguar pickup, missing the changer cover and rubber feet, but otherwise unmolested.
My initial feeling is this is still too original to modify with knee levers, but I'd like some more opinions. I think it would be a fairly simple project, but I am hesitating because of bad karma associated with modifying vintage guitars. Would I be destroying a heirloom of the future? Is there a reversible way to do this mod so I can take the levers off and leave no trace?

Thanks for your thoughts.
-Paul (edited for speling)

[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 29 September 2006 at 02:10 AM.]

Russ Tkac · Posted 29 Sep 2006 12:43 am

Paul,

Do a forum search on Fender 400 and you'll have quite a bit of information.

I have added pedals to two Fender 400s over the past year and would have no problem adding KLs if I wanted them. As there were no Knee levers as an option from Fender players did what worked for them.

I started with a modified E9 setup with strings 3 - 10 from the standard 10 string set. I used pedals 2 and 3 for the A and b pedals and added the E and F levers to pedals 1 and 4. I play "Day" so my setup was E lower to Eb on pedal one and E to F on pedal 4. I have since went to a B6 tuning with no knees and it has been great.

I don't think that value would change much if the mod is done well and would probably be worth more to the right person.

All the best,
Russ

[This message was edited by Russ Tkac on 29 September 2006 at 01:46 AM.]

Mike Headrick · From: South Pittsburg, TN, USA

As far as resale value, there must be more folks out here like me. I don't care what a guitar looks like as long as it sounds great and and is in good shape mechanically. I just paid 650.00 for a far less than perfect 400 because I wanted one NOW. I had previously had a knee lever on it, so holes were bored underneath. That was OK, because I intend to outfit it with two new levers anyway.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

If it was a pristine colector's item - yes. But if it had any usual player's bumps or bruises, no worries. I come from the 6-string world where collectability is a huge issue, and even changing screws can cause a huge value drop. But with vintage Fender steels, while their value has skyrocketed over 5-10 years, the "collectable" restrictions aren't as tight. Added knees, if done right, can actually enhance the value. About the only value issue would be refinishing - and even that's of marginal importance, although if you stumbled on an original custom-color one refinishing it would get you shot....

So don't worry about knee levers - almost all of us who actually play them have done it.

Russ Tkac · Posted 29 Sep 2006 2:04 pm

Mike,

Do you have plans to do some Moon and Sneaky stuff on that 400?

Russ

Gerald Pierce · From: Maydelle, Republic of Texas

Paul...go for it! Sneaky Pete's 400 is probably an abomination to those that who prefer all-original instruments.....but I'm sure glad he did it. Karma-Schmarma!

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but all the 400s I've seen with the jaguar-looking pickup had cast pedals. Maybe it's an interim guitar with characteristics of both the older and newer 400s (some interim 1000s had mixed characteristics)....if not, then your guitar is already on it's way to being an "abomination" (and I'm smiling while I use that word). - GP

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

I just realized something. 400's are single raise single lower, right?
So the C pedal E to F# would conflict with the E-F knee lever, right? Maybe there is no point to this experiment.

Unless of course I put a 1/2 stop on the knee lever so I could stop it at F.

(edited to add 1/2 stop)

[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 29 September 2006 at 06:44 PM.]

Gerald Pierce · From: Maydelle, Republic of Texas

There are fairly simple ways to get multiple pulls on Fender cable guitars. There's a good thread on the subject here>
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/012250.html

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Thanks, Gerald, that is a very informative thread. Now I have to go think about all that stuff I read. My brain is full.
The photos the guy sent me show weird tolex colors on the case, too. Dark almost black ends and kind of beige body. The 64 400 I have is a black case. And the serial number on mine is not too different from the one the guy sent me on this guitar I'm thinking about getting. So maybe if it's original, it is a transitional 63, with stamped pedals but all the later appointments.

To repeat, it is a roller bridge style 400 with stamped not cast pedals, jaguar pickup, and sunburst finish. No string mute.
Jody, do you have a second here??

[This message was edited by Paul Arntson on 29 September 2006 at 09:35 PM.]

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Paul, I haven't had a 400 since the sixties so I don't remember much about them. As far as the "F" lever function goes you can get it this way, providing that you can split the pedals. (Can this be done on a 400) If you have the normal "C" floor pedal and have a knee lever that lowers the E's to D# if you use that lever with the C pedal you'll get the same effect as using the "F" lever with the "A" pedal......JH in Va.

------------------
Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

I think my final thing is that I have to wait to find a funkier steel. I told the fellow that I just can't bear to desecrate a good instrument. I've done it so many times in my misspent youth that I will probably be reincarnated as a jr high band clarinet.
If anybody else is interested, I can send your email address to him. He seems like a nice person, but I only know him from this set of emails.

I think one way to do it non destructively would be to machine a sheet of 0.125 aluminum or steel to provide anchor space for fasteners and insert it between the wood body and the frame. Then it could be removed at a later date and leave the guitar unharmed.

Has anybody done this?

Jan Oelbrandt · From: Herzele, Belgium

I am also considering adding knee levers to my 1-knee Fender. But I can't find any info on where to get the parts. Can you please inform me? Sorry for being slightly off-topic...

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

My levers were machined by someone who essentially mad them for himself I think, then sold them to someone who sold them to me. There is no "kit" for Fenders - but it's not rocket science either. If you dig up the thread with the pictures of mine (or leave a note here and I'll repost or email them to you) any machine shop could probably make them easily. I could if had a few machine tools, and I have zero machining skills. You don't need fancy brackets with Delrin bearings or anything special - a couple pieces of aluminum, "L" shaped, with holes for a crosshaft; a square crosshaft with rounded ends to fit the holes; some kind of folding bracket to hold the lever to the shaft; a lever made of anything long and straight; a puller/turnbuckle/cable/loop (to fit the changer) assembly. Then another "L" shaped piece with a bolt in it for a stop. It sounds like a lot, but if you look at the pics it's really simple.

Red Rhodes made his out of gate hinges!

Mine are low-tech, a little rough as far as the machining goes...but work perfectly.

Actually, I know Jim Palenscar at Steel Guitars of North County could make them - we talked about it a long time ago.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

"So the C pedal E to F# would conflict with the E-F knee lever, right?"

Paul, With a high F# string in the open E9th tuning, you can do most all of the typical C pedal acending/decending licks (of course you can't do the blatent C-pedal on/off/on/off stomp... you can thank me later

).
I always envisioned adding a LKL and RKR to the 400 (bringing it to 4x2), with the LKL pulling directly from the changer, and the RKR pulling from the turn buckle.
I was going to use a brass cabinet hinge, with a shaped wooden knee lever on one end (the other end screwed into the body).
One (or both) of the levers would be flag shaped (possibly in opposing directions) so as to stagger the mounting position in order to keep out of the way of the cabling, but keep the area that they hit your leg the same.)
Cable purchased from a hobby shop (RC airplanes), Lock collars purchased from GeorgeL (used for Emmons Push-Pull guitars).
Cut a slot in the wooden knee lever to slide the cable into, and countersink a shallow hole for the lock collar behind it to seat in (lock collars on both sides of the knee lever, with a spring between the lock collar and knee lever on the non-pulling side, to keep the knee lever tensioned against the pulling collar).
In the end as you know I opted to change direction and keep an eye out for a Fender 1000 (D Cool

, which I haven't found yet).
~pb

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 06 October 2006 at 09:10 AM.]

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Paul, really the only "desecration" is a few screw holes for mounting of brackets. There's no major surgery required at all.

Paul Arntson · From: Washington, USA

Jan - I have an email in to a guy who's waiting to hear from a machinist. I'll email you when and if he gets back to me.

Pete - Good luck on finding the 1000. I sure am having a lot of fun with the 400. Every time I sit down there is new stuff to find in that copedant you put on there. I probably should just stick to learning and wait on modding. I appreciate all your info, though.
Combining a few bar slants with the changes you put on there goes a long way.

Jim - I think the stuff you have done with yours is absolutely amazing. I continue to be impressed.

As Pete already knows, I am kind of a nut about not modifying this particular guitar. It's not really rational.

It seems like the consensus is that the instrument has so much value as a player that modding a 400 won't change the value downward if done right. This is encouraging and it is good information. When I advance enough to need the levers I will get a second one and have at it.

Thanks to all who provided info. As always, this forum is the greatest!

-Paul

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

My fender 400 has 8 pedals. I had it in the sneaky pete setup for a while, but it wasn't natural for me. I usually play a uni-12 and I wanted the same E9 knee lever changes so here is what i did.

pedal 1 raises E's to F(F knee lever)
pedal 2 raises B's to C#(A pedal)
pedal 3 raises G#'s to A(B pedal)
pedal 4 lowers E's to Eb(D knee lever=B6)
pedal 5 lowers D# to D(dominat 7th)
pedal 6 lowers G#'s to G(Tonic Minor chords)
pedal 7 lowers B's to Bb(b5 chords)
pedal 8 raises F# to G#

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E

i really like it cause i can get my AF and BD
combos like i do with my modern knees. No C pedal but there is a world of combos that work great for me.

also notice how pedal combo 5,6,7 gives me the elusive m7b5 chord

[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 08 October 2006 at 12:22 PM.]

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

I don't have a Fender anymore... though I've owned quite a few... but just by monitoring this thread, it seems to me that an entrepreneurial guy could make some bucks by machining up a bunch of Fender-acceptable knee levers and announcing it here in Forumland. If he wanted to make the financial investment in the machining and accumulation of parts, that is.

I'd also accumulate a bunch of expansion springs in the correct size and tension to replace the stock Fender springs on strings that are lowered. This improves the horrid stiffness of the pull with the standard spring.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Rand Anderson · From: Cardiff, California, USA

i just thought I would get this back up top....
Can anybody in CA, AZ add 2 knee levers to mine?

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Rand, Ican shoot pics and get you exact dimesnions of mine of you want. they are incredibly simple, and any machine shop should be able to knock them out cheap. You *could* buy a $150/ea knee lever kit from one of the PSG builders, but they just aren't needed on a 400 - simple is good.

Herb, you are SO right - the other thing that is really needed badly are cable assemblies...folks jury-rig all sorts of stuff, but if someone could find me the small pullies somewhere I'd be happy to make them as inexpensively as possible. All the other parts can be had, it's just the small pulleys that are missing...I've already put together the other parts to save partial assemblies, but I can't find those small, flat pulleys anywhere.

Brian LeBlanc · From: Falls Church, Virginia, USA

any updates on adding levers?

D&F

i typically play an old ShoBud...

agh..."play" is used loosely!
_________________
'Frenchy' LeBlanc...
ShoBud & Twins

Marty Broussard · From: Broussard, Louisiana, USA

👀
_________________
RETIRED
Former steel guitarist for Tracy Byrd & The Byrd Dawgs, Mark Chesnut & The New South Band, Mark Nesler & Texas Tradition, Wayne Toups & ZydeCajun, Belton Richard & The Musical Aces

"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic