“Tone” The End Result

[Larry Ball]

“I Ask” why is the “Tone” in your recording the same regardless of the PSG that you recorded with.

I have listened for years to six string and steel recordings and the sound or tone of the guitar is same. Therefore all the mechanics applied to recording appear not to have influenced the sound. Eg: I watched a particular home studio individual record many six string guitars (Fender, Gibson etc, etc.)with the end result they all sound the same. I know from experience those guitars have very distinct tones. Also I have listened to a number of Utube Videos of Steel Players making home studio videos playing different steels. Same end result..”No” change in tone.

So what effects the “Tone” in the recording? I know this may open up a wall of opinions but there has to be a main element in the process that controls this.

[Dan Kelly]

Hey Larry - In my mind, the starting point is to differentiate between the sound of a PSG in the role of a back up / fill instrument versus the sound of a PSG as the featured instrumental track. In the first case, the PSG sound or tone can be, as you say, perceived to be "the same" from recording to recording. That is not to say the playing is the same... just that some producers have an expectation of what a PSG should sound like in the mix.

However, when it comes to an instrumental track where it is all about the PSG, I hear big differences. Try listening to something Joe Goldmark did and compare it to something Randy Beavers did. I am not saying one is better than another... just that the tone of the PSG in the recording is way different. I am outta time right now, but I will see if I can circle back and post a couple of Soundcloud tracks that demonstrate this.

BTW, it is not only producers that have an expectation of what a PSG should sound like... many players have an expectation as well. During the 70's, it seems to me that players were more willing to record PSG instrumental tracks with sound and tone ideas that were more risky or experimental. Pete Drake's "Talking Steel and Strings" album is an example. Buddy Emmons' "Witches Brew" is another. Some of the experiments stood the test of time, some did not. It seems to me that today, players gravitate to the "expected" sound and that expectation has become "homogenized." Players today seem to want to distinguish themselves by their playing ability rather than experiment with a sound or tone that is outside of general expectations.

[Larry Ball]

Hi Dan,

I agree that two Steelers sound different on mixes coming from different studios. Yes producers have their preconceptions of sound that they want to hear in the mix.

Home Sudio's is where you hear the same sound coming from different guitars.
So what causes "That" . The software, The DAW , The Audio Interface or the signal chain.

[Tony Prior]

So what effects the “Tone” in the recording?

Well its not a dumb question at all.

When recording, we shouldn't CHASE or SEARCH for the tone we are seeking after the fact, , we should already KNOW what we want .

I don't find recordings to be the SAME, while many are similar, many are not. I certainly agree that many Steel guitars SOUND similar in the dynamic EQ range before we "track".

This is where quality front end MICS or Preamps can make a difference. Not expensive, but not entry level or low end. They can easily color the sound just enough where we can distinguish a difference (EARS). We are so used to plugging our Steels into an amp that many times we really don't know what our instruments sound like "organically" . Many of the lower end interface/preamps are "preset" in the EQ range, which may very well add way too much midrange. ( 1K to 2K range)

In our DAWS we have the ability to alter the TONE one way or the other or just LEAVE IT ALONE , let it breath the way it came INTO the DAW. I have tracked with both Push Pulls and Legrandes and quite frankly I can't tell the difference MOST of the time using the same preamps.

One thing rings true, FRESH STRINGS stand out from an instrument with older strings. They make for VERY consistent tones and we are not fighting the EQ ranges , which cause us to tweak to compensate for dull strings.


I personally track thru a DBX 376 Channel strip, which has a 4 band Para EQ and on board compressor. Before I record I know what it sounds like because it is predetermined, TONE ahead of the DAW. Now, we can tweak the overall sound envelop if desired with a 5 or 7 band EQ. IF you want to tweak the TONE this is the place to do it. but if you want to just clean it up, this is also the place to do it. Learning and understanding the EQ freq profiles and what the do.

Listen to your STEEL all by itself, add a FLAT 5 or 7 band EQ profile then take ONE fader up and down and listen. It will be quite amazing ! Take notes. It can be a WOW moment or a HOLY COW moment .

Heres a few pointers

50 to 100 HZ, this is TOTAL MUD get rid of it, this makes a dramatic change in your tone.

150 to 250 - this is thickness, big difference between cutting or adding with the fader ( DB )

300 to 1000 - you probably have to make an envelope, this is where your instrument will jump out or hide in the background.

1000 to 2000 or so, this is mid range HONK. A little movement one way or the other makes a HUGE difference in what you hear.

3000 to 8000 . brightness. I believe many overdo it here.

remember though, they ALL interact.


IF your Steel sounds pretty good ahead of the DAW, your EQ profile changes should be minimal , slight changes.


Ok we have not even discussed Monitors or headphones. They can change everything with a false representation of what you already have ! We'll save this discussion for another day !


Think of it another way. Premium studios use HI END gear to reproduce TONE , and people listen to music on $14.95 earbuds or PC speakers.

[Edward Dixon]

imo...

There are many variables involved but the 1st 3 are most important.

1. The instrument, including the strings and pickup(s).
2. The player. Meaning the player's technique used to vibrate the string. Tone starts with the hands.
3. Amplification and what the player's ear wants to hear.

These 3 are the same live or recorded. After that, care needs to be taken not to alter things that do not need to be altered. The only time I mess with anything in the DAW is when an instrument doesn't quite sit well in a mix with other instruments. Usually it's just a matter of pan and level, I hardly ever touch EQ settings in the DAW. I believe the Audio interface and the DAW must be completely transparent, which for me results in more playing and less tweaking.


Your mileage may vary...

[Larry Ball]

Thank You Gentlemen for your responses.

I agree with your comments about basically everything. I just wondered when a Franklin Steel sounds the same in a home recording as another steel does that’s why I asked the question..

[Tony Prior]

One thing to keep in mind here as we discuss the Steel and EQ for recording. On the gigs we each set our tones as we desire, we don't interfere with other instruments as we have our own separate amps and speakers. There is NO competition for EQ and space.

With tracking, every instrument is competing for EQ freq's and space, as all the music is coming out of the same speakers and from the same amp. Its a pallet of "colors" all meshed together.

While the two worlds, LIVE and TRACKING, seem similar, they are not. The premium engineers separate all instruments in the spectrum without disturbing the dynamics of each individual instrument , and at the same time bringing each instrument to life with the appropriate EQ profile.

On the gigs, this is what we do, we tweak until we hear what we think is "good stuff" from our amp. In the MIX we have to do it for EACH instrument on the track , it can be subtle or dramatic otherwise one track may very well interfere with another which may cause TWO tracks to be somewhat lifeless.

Understanding EQ and Space takes us from , "that sounds nice" to " WOW that sounds great" !

Its quite an art ( and challenge)

OF course , those of us who track at home for fun, pleasure , or for sharing our music with others, the importance is not critical, but in a RETAIL setting, the mix may be more important than the music we are listening to ! RE: Its a great track but the song is lousy !

[Bud Angelotti]

Hi Larry - May I start by most respectfully disagreeing with you.
Home Studio's is where you hear the sa ... guitars.
I could not disagree more.
The steel I hear on most modern recordings mostly sounds the same, to me.
Stick in the mud? Yup.
Point is, Pro studios can sound the same also, nowadays.
So how do they, WE, get a unique tone that does not sound like the other steels.
Ever notice how certain guitar players for instance, regular 6 string guitar players, have a unique style or sound? You can tell it's a certain player by maybe 3 notes. They have developed their own thing! Their own sound, their own tone. However they did it.
Check this out -- Kenny G.
You may love 'em, you may hate 'em, does not matter. What matters is you hear 3 notes and you know it's Kenny G. and he expresses his own tone and personality.
It's personality THRU the instrument.
Thats what I think any way.
Happy New Year!

[Larry Ball]

Hi Bud..

Thanks for your response…

I am well aware of styles that effect tone on all instruments. I am not talking about Professional recording studios…they have everything at their fingertips to create whatever sound they want. I think Tony probably explained everything in the most technical terms possibly. I simply said a six string guitar player playing in his “Home Studio” that I have listened too. Eg: plays a Fender.. the tone of the recording sounds the same as when he plays a Gibson or other types of guitars. I am not listening to his style but his “Tone” on the recording that is being played back from his Home Studio Recording Equipment.

“THAT” has always been my question?

Listening too different steel players on Utube playing in different studios “YES” they all have their own “STYLE” and “TONE”

Again listening to different steels being played in the same home studio through the same “Signal Chain, DAW, Etc, Etc, Etc, the tone sounds the same.

[Tony Prior]

Lets not overlook that thousands of Steel guitar players all want to sound like the same "ONE" guy and tweak away until they are pretty close Maybe everyone is chasing the same reference !

This is also true in TELECASTER and STRATOCASTER land.

[David Mitchell]

Maurice Anderson once said you can give any steel guitar and any amp any tone you want by turning equalization knobs and that's true to a great extent and that's the reason why an engineer or musician keeps getting the same tone regardless of guitar, amp or recording equipment. In their brain that's the sound they want to hear and they keep reaching for it on every recording session although their choices are almost unlimited. Everybody has their own idea of what a good sound is.

[Tony Prior]

Everybody has their own idea of what a good sound is.

quite true , but I would suggest that most are chasing Buddy's tone , or something very similar, which in many circles it is referred to as the GOLD STANDARD !


Put 50 players in the same room using the same guitar and amp chasing E's tone

20 will get pretty close
20 will get fairly close
10 will not even be remotely close

Its not a bad thing as its because we are all individuals

[Steve Mueller]

Tony,
That's a great description of use of an EQ.
Thanks!

[Dale Rottacker]

Tone has always been a bit of a mystery to me. So much like Music Theory that I would not say I understand it, or be able to equate what mids sound like by using English to express it. I'm no Tony Prior when it comes to explaining Eq.

A wise man, (David Mitchell) told me once WAY back when, to get the sound you want before you ever record a thing and then record THAT. So I just twist knobs on the amp till I like what I hear, and hope that my DAW and Mic are transparent enough to not alter that very much. I must admit, that my ear seems to accept Tone of steel AND steel players IF it falls within a certain range, but if that Tone falls outside of my prescribed envelope then I get a funnier look on my face than the one I was born with.

Its pretty rare that I do any actual Eq'ing of the Steel itself in the DAW. That said I do Eq the Reverb.

Tony said something I found interesting and true, though I hadn't thought about it the way Tony explained. I have noticed that when recording without a track, that whatever guitar I'm recording with, they all sound very close. HOWEVER, when recording to a track that can change quite a bit. What sounds clear and crisp all by itself, can sound less clear and crisp and even sometimes a little dark or muddy when recording to a track. And frankly I'm not sure I've gotten very good at setting the steel in the right sonic space.

And there's my unedjamicated rambling two cents worth.

[Tony Prior]

I'm no Tony Prior when it comes to explaining Eq.

LOL Me either !


My own experiences come from reading and tweaking. If I am posting something regarding EQ it comes from a reference I read somewhere along the way. For me, personally, I have always had an idea of what I want things to sound like, it was never a guessing game, the issue was always, how do I achieve it .

One thing I don't have is patience, for anything. I am not a wait around person, never have been.

EQ is a tuff deal, but it doesn't have to be. Like many here, I strive for the tones I like AHEAD of recording so there is a minimal effort POST tracking. To me its like going backwards but it is a necessary function.

I keep an EQ chart next to my DAW as a reference, its a cheat sheet. I don't spend hrs tweaking as hopefully the tones of Instruments I may use are already close to what I am seeking on the way IN to the DAW. Its old school.

Probably the biggest improvements that I have made for my projects were working on and cleaning up the LO END MUD. Early on I had no idea how much LO END MUD effected the entire track.

Years back I learned this in real time when a very savvy friend was over at the house listening to some of my stuff. He sat down at the PC , made a few adjustments and it was like night and day. He made cuts to the lo end on each track. 50, 80 or 100 HZ or so. He laughed and said " there ain't nothing down there worth listening to anyway "

While I am certainly no RETAIL Engineer, far from it, I did learn that slight edits in individual Instrument EQ profiles , while clearing up the LO END can enhance our home studio projects .

Apparently thats why ALL Workstations and DAW's have EQ profiles available for ALL tracks ! Who Knew !

[Dale Rottacker]

I'm no Tony Prior when it comes to explaining Eq.

LOL Me either !

Tony I always read with interest just about anything you have to say... JUST ABOUT LOL... I appreciate so much that David reached out to me several years ago and Mark Tulbert as well. You all have flattened the learning curve to something more manageable for me.

I had read or watched a video at some point that talked about a trick that the Abby Road guys used on the Beatles stuff. Where they would Eq the Reverb, that looked something like this. This has made a difference for me.

[Bob Hoffnar]

All guitars don't sound the same when they are recorded and EQ doesn't do much of anything to alter the fundamental sound of a pedalsteel. It's more about how the steel resonates and holds or looses the various partials of the overtone series. There are so many variables when it comes to timbre. You can insist that you can make an MSA sound like an Emmons but you would be wrong.

The issue of "everything sounds the same" is a matter of subjective judgement. Many people think all country music sounds the same. The people that say that do not listen with their ears.

[Fred Treece]

From an amateur’s point of view, EQ (live or recording) is pretty basic and is largely about attenuating 4 things about guitar amp tone:
-The Mud
-The Boom
-The Honk
-The Shrill

I just started using a Focusrite interface last year. It produces a pretty true and transparent sound from the line out of my amp.

Tony’s post “rings true” for me. Just yesterday I did some EQ on my live rig for an acoustic guitar. The bass/mid/treble starting point was acceptable, but it needed processing to sound more acoustic. It made a huge difference. Tone may be “in the hands”, but that is a loaded phrase if there ever was one.

Personally, I’m okay with steel guitars all sounding relatively close to the same, whether you think that's the case or not. It allows me to pay attention more to what the player is playing than how it sounds. Like Classical guitar.