D13th S12

[Johnny Cox]

Studying the tuning now.
The F#- G# change on the top string, E9, has been somewhat popular in the last 30 years, if not more.
I think Paul Franklin was the first to use it.
I don't see it on your copedent.
Any thoughts on it. String breakage? The C pedal gives a nice unison with the F#, but F#-G# has quality of sound that I like.

It's there, on my guitar it's LKLI. Paul made it prominent but not the first to do it.

[Chris Templeton]

Thanks guys.
Johnny, could you tell me the weight of the triple neck pedal you had? I'm guessing 120 pounds in the case.

[Johnny Cox]

Thanks guys.
Johnny, could you tell me the weight of the triple neck pedal you had? I'm guessing 120 pounds in the case.

I honestly don't remember number but it was in split cases. It seems that the guitar in its case was about the same as a D10 in a single case.

[Chris Templeton]

Got it. Thanks.

[Chris Scruggs]

Johnny, what gauges are you using for D13?

[Dustin Rhodes]

Johnny, what gauges are you using for D13?

Hey Chris this might help.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=373060

[Johnny Cox]

Johnny, what gauges are you using for D13?

Hey Chris this might help.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=373060

These are the gauges b0b and I came up with

[Johnny Cox]

So doing some thinking about the 1st string raise. As on E9th I raise my 1st (E or 2 to 3 of chord) a whole tone. And on my C6th I lowered my 2nd string (E or 3 to 2 of chord) a whole tone. I got that from Maurice Anderson and use it a lot. On my D13th I'm thinking of lowering the 3rd string a whole tone to accomplish both.

[b0b]

Johnny came up with the idea of a chart showing how the intervals line up with the standard E9th and C6th tunings. The RKR changes strings 10 and 11 to match the C6th low A and F intervals. Here's my graphic interpretation of his idea:

[Johnny Cox]

Johnny came up with the idea of a chart showing how the intervals line up with the standard E9th and C6th tunings. The RKR changes strings 10 and 11 to match the C6th low A and F intervals. Here's my graphic interpretation of his idea:

Thanks b0b, it just made sense to look at it in intervals as opposed to tunings. My tuning puts all those intervals in the same spot for both 12 string E9th and C6th. There are lots of players with such better musical minds than me, I still don't understand why this hasn't been done before.

[b0b]

So doing some thinking about the 1st string raise. As on E9th I raise my 1st (E or 2 to 3 of chord) a whole tone. And on my C6th I lowered my 2nd string (E or 3 to 2 of chord) a whole tone. I got that from Maurice Anderson and use it a lot. On my D13th I'm thinking of lowering the 3rd string a whole tone to accomplish both.

I'd stick with the 1st string raise. The 3rd string's tuning is very stable because it only raises. There's bound to be a bit of hysteresis if you lower it a full step.

Johnny, what gauges are you using for D13?

E .014
C# .017
F# .013
D .015
B .018
A .020p
F# .026w
E .030
D .034
C .040
A .046
D .060

[Johnny Cox]

I thought I would put these variations of D13th setups here for comparison.
First is a standard Emmons 8x5 pedal setup. One additional note, Buddy Emmons did not raise his first string only the second.



Next is what I currently have on my MSA 8X6



The following are the two possibilities for my new guitar, either 7x6 or 6x6







As you can see this tuning is very adaptable to different pedal configurations.

[Darren Mortillaro]

Hi Johnny,

I'm having a new MSA S12 put together. Of these options what would you recommend for a beginner?

I should also say that I really don't want to change copedants after deciding on one, as I don't want to be constantly re-learning how to play the instrument. Regularly changing and experimenting with different tunings or setups will only confuse me further, and slow down my progress. Which would you say is the best setup for a beginner to learn and to stick with permanently?

[Johnny Cox]

Hi Johnny,

I'm having a new MSA S12 put together. Of these options what would you recommend for a beginner?

I thought I would put these variations of D13th setups here for comparison.
First is a standard Emmons 8x5 pedal setup



Next is what I currently have on my MSA 8X6



The following are the two possibilities for my new guitar, either 7x6 or 6x6







As you can see this tuning is very adaptable to different pedal configurations.

Have you played very long and what setup do you currently have?

[Darren Mortillaro]

Hi Johnny,

I have a S-10 E9, 3 pedal 3 lever BMI. Been playing (or messing around with PSG) for about 10-15 years, but am still a beginner.

As mentioned above, I really don't want to change copedants after deciding on a new "universal" one, as I don't want to be constantly re-learning how to play the instrument. Regularly changing and experimenting with different tunings or setups will only confuse me further, and slow down my progress. Which would you say is the best setup for a beginner to learn and to stick with permanently?

I have a solid background in music theory, and am more a jazz guitar guy than anything. Pedal steel is something I am not as familiar with.

[Johnny Cox]

Hi Johnny,

I have a S-10 E9, 3 pedal 3 lever BMI. Been playing (or messing around with PSG) for about 10-15 years, but am still a beginner.

As mentioned above, I really don't want to change copedants after deciding on a new "universal" one, as I don't want to be constantly re-learning how to play the instrument. Regularly changing and experimenting with different tunings or setups will only confuse me further, and slow down my progress. Which would you say is the best setup for a beginner to learn and to stick with permanently?

I have a solid background in music theory, and am more a jazz guitar guy than anything. Pedal steel is something I am not as familiar with.

Then I suggest the standard Emmons setup.

[b0b]

Johnny, I think there are two errors on your "Emmons" chart, both on the right knee, 2nd string. Shouldn't they be half-step, not full-step changes (D and C, respectively)?

[Mike Spaeth]

I am curious about the open B on the 5th string while pulling string 6 to a B again.
How is this used in an actual playing environment?

[Fred Treece]

I am curious about the open B on the 5th string while pulling string 6 to a B again.
How is this used in an actual playing environment?

With Pedals 1-2-3 in this copedent being just like ABC in E9 (except they pull strings 4-6-7 here), the two B’s in Pedals Down could be used just like any other unison, bending 6 into 5 and releasing it out. Double-footing with Pedal 7 looks like fun too, rocking off Pedal 1 for a IV-V7 change.

I don’t have this tuning, but the magic in that open B string looks to me like it is in the pedals beyond 1-2-3. Plus, your VI chord is only a LKL away, no A pedal.

[Johnny Cox]

Johnny, I think there are two errors on your "Emmons" chart, both on the right knee, 2nd string. Shouldn't they be half-step, not full-step changes (D and C, respectively)?

b0b, you are correct on the RKL but it's a whole tone lower with 1/2 stop on RKR.

[Johnny Cox]

I am curious about the open B on the 5th string while pulling string 6 to a B again.
How is this used in an actual playing environment?

With Pedals 1-2-3 in this copedent being just like ABC in E9 (except they pull strings 4-6-7 here), the two B’s in Pedals Down could be used just like any other unison, bending 6 into 5 and releasing it out. Double-footing with Pedal 7 looks like fun too, rocking off Pedal 1 for a IV-V7 change.

I don’t have this tuning, but the magic in that open B string looks to me like it is in the pedals beyond 1-2-3. Plus, your VI chord is only a LKL away, no A pedal.

Fred, the open B has a multitude of uses. The main one for me is the 6th note interval that is the key to playing the C6th stuff in the upper strings.

[b0b]

Fred, the open B has a multitude of uses. The main one for me is the 6th note interval that is the key to playing the C6th stuff in the upper strings.

I have a lever that raises B to C, similar to the C6th A to Bb. I use it a lot. Of course, you have those notes on the second string, but I find them more convenient for some phrasings in the middle of the chord. It's just what I'm used to.

[Fred Treece]

I think Mike Spaeth meant, what do you do with open string 5 when string 6 is raised a whole step, meaning 5&6 are in unison, both B’s. That’s really all I was attempting to address. But yeah, I can see the open B is the launch pad into that whole D6/13 tuning universe.

[Johnny Cox]

I think Mike Spaeth meant, what do you do with open string 5 when string 6 is raised a whole step, meaning 5&6 are in unison, both B’s. That’s really all I was attempting to address. But yeah, I can see the open B is the launch pad into that whole D6/13 tuning universe.

Sometimes play the unison. It doesn't get in my way of anything as far as sympathetic ring.

[Darren Mortillaro]

Hello Johnny and Bob,

Could you help proof-read this chart, and make sure I don't have any errors before I send it to MSA?