ZB Issues

[Eric Dahlhoff]

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Wouldn't it make more sense to turn over the cross pieces the changer rods attach to so the rods are pulling directly? Rather than being behind the pivot post? Better balance and pull. Does my explanation make sense?

Hmmm... I don't understand your question? Everything in the pic looks about right to me.

[Fred]

This is the P4–7 setup as I received the guitar so long ago. Wouldn't it make more sense to turn over the cross pieces the changer rods attach to so the rods are pulling directly? Rather than being behind the pivot post? Better balance and pull. Does my explanation make sense? My thoughts. Yours?
Thank you.

Since the pull rods are on both sides of the pivot point and the pulling bar is solid the rods don’t “know” wether they’re in front of or behind the pivot. The only difference to balance and feel would be the relative distance of each pull from the pivot.

This is based on looking at the mechanism and how I expect it should work. I’ve never played or worked on one of these.

Frrd

[Kelcey ONeil]

The cross bar screws are indeed 10-32, they were intended to be rather tight so the screw would not back out without being tightened down all the way. Nowadays, chasing the holes with a tap and using Loctite on the screws would probably be best. Just from the pics the C6 neck looks fine, it doesn’t matter which way the swivel is turned as far as that goes. Here’s a few pics from one I just finished if they may be of use(btw it’s an SD-11).

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Thanks again, all; I'm more comfortable about how the changer rods attach to the yokes, though both examples I've seen in this thread have the changer rod/yoke connections the other way.
Eric, when you moved the yokes to the underside of the crossbars did you pivot the positioning of the changer rod/yoke attachment 90 degrees? I see no cotter pins on the ends of your rods. That way the rods would be held in by being between the yoke and crossbar.
I may be over-thinking this, but "measure twice, cut once"...

[Eric Dahlhoff]

Bruce - yes, exactly. The rods on ABC pedals are held in place without cotter pins. Of course you need a bit of space there so they don't drag.
It's the same as some of the rods on the C6 side.

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Makes sense, thank you.
Regarding cotter/hitch/whatever pins, I went to Ace Hdwre to pick up some. They seemed a bit large: .47 diam x 19/32 length. Diameter seems good; length seems long. Where did folks get their pins,and do you remember what size?

[Eric Dahlhoff]

I bought a BIG bag on ebay. Shoot me your address & I'll send you some. Needs a 3/64" drill bit.

[Patrick Timmins]

Here is where I bought my last bag. Any size you want.

https://www.mcmaster.com/cotter-pins/ha ... er-pins-6/



I think this is what I bought last time for ZB and BMI guitars.

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Love McMaster-Carr!

[Bruce Wandmayer]

I'm now finding that the 10-32 screw holes in both the crossbars for pedals B & C (the screw holes closest to the front of the guitar) and center strap are stripped. There are three on each assembly. On the B pedal, I can push the screw all the way in without turning at all; C pedal screw turns but is loosey-goosey.
Options:
1) Drill and retap both crossbar and center strap for a 12-24 screw. (doesn't seem like a good idea)
2) Drill out holes and install 10-32 inserts, whatever they're called
3) Use different holes, moving the yokes on the crossbars closer to the pedals to rebalance

Does this make sense to you? Any ideas or suggestions?
This whole project is two steps forward, three steps back.
Oh well...

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Forget "There are three on each assembly." I mean there are three assemblies on the E neck.

[Eric Dahlhoff]

Not sure which holes you're referring to. Post a pic.

The holes in the round cross rods (knee levers) are suppose to have no threads, so you can turn the screw and adjust the height of the pull rods.

But I "think" you mean the holes in the flat bars... you can swap with another pedal that doesn't use that hole.
Or just make new ones. Standard metal stock, cut, drill & tap. If doing that, make more holes in it so you can have more adjustment.

[J R Rose]

Bruce, You are doing a great job. You have a lot of common horse sense to do what you have done. Just hang in their and you will get it done. PSG Parts has replacement parts. Micheal, Good guy to deal with. He as everything you would need. Look up is web site, Pedal Steel Guitar Parts. And when it is done you will be so Proud of it. They are a GREAT Steel. Billy Knowles has some parts and Billy is a Honest Guy.
I have owned two of these D-10 ZB's. I love them. Steel Guitars East I think is Billy's web. Their are a number of forum guys here that know the ZB guitars inside and out. And do not be scared to ask questions, but we do hope to see finished pictures and a sound bite if possible. J.R. Rose

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Yes, the screws in the flat crossbars, attaching to the center strap (or whatever). On P2 (the B pedal), the first 10-32 screw holes in both the flat crossbar and the center piece to which they attach are stripped. Using my thumb, I can push the machine screw all the way in without turning it; that's stripped! P3 (C pedal) is loose but not as loose. P1 seems fine.
I could replace the flat crossbars but that wouldn't take care of the center piece stripped threads.
I could possibly find 10-32 inserts for both the crossbar and center piece holes, drilling out the originals, maybe using epoxy.
Or I could switch to the center holes of the three possible ones instead of the most forward ones. If I do that I'll need to move the yokes 1 or 2 holes closer to the pedal rods to compensate. I'd probably have to do that with all three pedals to keep the changer rods from crossing each other.
That's where I am for now; I'll probably try that as it requires no irreversible cutting or drilling.
Does this make sense to you? It frustrates the hell out of me.
Also, should there be a washer on the 10-32 machine screw between the flat crossbar and the center strip? (What is that called anyway?) That would keep the two items from rubbing each other.

[Eric Dahlhoff]

Bruce,
I've never figured out what to call those parts. The flat bars are actually the bell-cranks, but that doesn't seem "right". I just call the long shiny thing the mounting plate. What did Zane call them?

Two options - flip the mounting plate & use the opposite hole.
Or drill & tap a new hole to the side of the stripped one. It will be covered up by the bell-crank. The slight angle will not matter. I've done both.

Also the holes on the bell-crank; just drill & tap new ones where you want them. It's all pretty unforgiving. I've seen factory ZB's with different #'s of holes on different bell-cranks.

And YES - there must be a washer under the flat bar (bell-crank).

Looking good!

[richard burton]

If you don't mind going 'non-standard' you could make a new plate and locate it above the 3 flat bars.

You could use the existing holes (marked with green arrows on the image) to screw the plate to the instrument, using spacers so that the 3 flat bars are 'sandwiched' between the top and bottom plates, with just enough clearance to move freely.
The 3 existing pivot pins would be replaced by longer screws, through tapped holes in the new plate.
This repair would mean no modification (or extra holes), and no removal of existing hardware

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Eric, Richard -

Thank you for your responses! Excellent ideas. I'm flipping the center mount and re-drilling the bellcranks. When I pulled the center mount I saw that it really needs polishing to fit in with the other hardware. I contacted a local motorcycle shop (as far as I can tell, the only one who does polishing around here) and will get it done after the New Year, when his polisher is back in action.
And onwards...
Once again, I appreciate the support of the Forum.
Namaste.

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Well, I'm back to the long and winding restoration of this ancient artifact. I've now got all the pieces put back in, as far as I can tell.
I haven't checked the tuning and correctness of the C neck yet, but I've found a situation with the 8th string E –> D# lower on the E neck: namely, it doesn't. 4th string E –> D# is good (same knee), 8th string E –> F is good. The lowering part of the changer moves but the string doesn't drop, the bridge doesn't move. I pulled the string to the side and removed the string roller from the changer; it's not binding. The tuner on the end of the guitar moves (it's not mis-adjusted), just not the string. Also, the raise tuner may be moving a bit when I actuate the lower.



Could the hinge between the upper and lower part of that changer be jammed? I've tried dripping Tri-Flow down the changer from the top, hopefully getting it into the hinge. Am I going to have to loosen all strings on the E neck, disconnect all connections to the ailing changer, slide the axle past strings 10, 9 and 8, remove the changer and see if it's binding?
Is there another, obvious possibility I'm missing? An easier way?
Yeah, I could ship it off to a ZB tech who could put it right; just depends on how much I want to lose on this...
If you need clarification or have any ideas I'd love to hear from you.
Dynamite is not an option. Yet.

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Latest bright idea: I'm going to try disconnecting everything - changer rods, tuners, return spring - from the string 8 changer, lubricating it and wiggling it around without removing it from the whole unit. Maybe there'll be enough room to loosen it. Not tonight though; I've had enough for now.

[Eric Dahlhoff]

Bruce,
Try pushing on the end plate tuners and see what does & doesn't move. (with guitar upside down) You might be able to feel something scraping or rubbing. Doing that eliminates all the pull-rods, etc, from the equation.



Definitely the raise screw should not move when the lower screw is pushed (and vice-versa).
I've seen various bits rubbing and catching in the changers.

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Eric, before getting your reply, I disconnected raise and lower rods, as well as the return spring from string 8, E neck. The changer seemed to move freely. I reassembled the unit and tried pushing the tuners with a 5/32 Allen wrench. When I push the lower, the raise tuner moves with it and the string almost imperceptibly lowers in pitch. When I push the raise, the lower stays put and the pitch raises a half-tone as it should. Something's still hanging up in there, probably in the hinge or the raise.


Probably tear it down again and see what I can find...

[Eric Dahlhoff]

Bruce,
You should be able to pull the single finger out of the changer. Just tap in a rod of the same diameter as the axle and support the other 9 fingers while you pull that one out. Using lots of lube helps. Keep all the other strings on.
Good luck!

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Eric,

Brilliant! I'll try tapping a temporary axle in to support the other changers while I remove the stubborn finger. Looks like 3/16". Correct?

My gratitude to you knows no bounds for the clear and absolutely invaluable, ongoing suggestions and assistance you provide me. It's even greater than my frustration with this trial-and-error (LOTS of errors) project I'm involved with. Thanks for the lifeline.

'Til next time,
Bruce

[Bruce Wandmayer]

Do you lubricate the threads on the changer rods and turnbuckles, say with Tri-Flow P.T.F.E.? That would make it easier to adjust them.

And do you chase the threads with taps and dies? That would take two taps and two dies, as one side is threaded left-handed.

I don't plan on making a career of rehabbing ZB's so I'm considering the investment in project-specific tools I'll probably use once.

I could've asked earlier but I didn't know how deep I was going to go.

Thanks again.

[Eric Dahlhoff]

Bruce,
I'm happy to help keep old ZB's running! They are cool.
I always clean the turnbuckle threads with taps & dies. 6-40 is the thread size. A 6-40 tap/die set (1 each normal & reverse) is really pretty cheap, even if you only use them for 20 turnbuckles

Look here...
https://drillsandcutters.com

I put a drop of 3-in-one oil in each turnbuckle when re-assembling. And I replace the 6-40 nuts with "modern" ones which are larger and easier to grab and adjust.
Tri-flow on all other parts.

You're almost done! Have fun