help design my bass lap steel

[Steve Atwood]

I've been playing lap steel for over ten years, just for the fun of playing and learning about music, and never thought of myself as a musician. Lately I've been thinking I'd like to see if I can get good enough to perform. Because of limited skill and arthitis, it would have to be as a backup player, i.e. bass, so I bought some heavy guage strings and put the thickest ones on my 8-string Dynalap that would fit: C (below the standard tuning E) C# D D# E F F# G. I'm taking lessons, I like the sound I'm getting through my cheap Ibanez amp, and it's fun playing along with YouTube videos.

So I'd like to get some input from builders on factors to consider in designing a bass lap steel, mainly for Hawaiian music.

Decided so far: electric, not acoustic; steel strings, not nylon; at least 8 strings, tuned chromatically starting with the G below standard tuning E or lower; 3/8" string spacing...

From what I've been reading it looks like the goal is to find a balance between scale length (longer means deeper range, but extra weight) and string thickness (thicker means deeper range but more bar noise).

Looking forward to any advice on design, also amps and pickups for a warm tone, and quiet tonebars.

[Glenn Wilde]

The triple and quad Fenders had a bass neck iirc, not sure of the tuning though

[Steve Atwood]

Thanks for that, Glenn. I did a search and found a couple of threads on the Forum. (I thought I had seen all bass threads before.) Doug Beaumier posted a link to a Buddy Merrill video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcipRLzk4zM&t=106s

and the tuning and string gauges that he found in a catalog:

E .032
C# .038
A .044
F# .048
E .055
C# .071
A .087
F .110

[Glenn Wilde]

That's a A6 tuning with string 8 flattened a half step. I really like A6 and have my 8 string Magnatone in it, octave higher than the one you posted though.

[Steve Atwood]

I have a Tradewind tuned to C6 with a high G, but can't play it because of bone-on-bone arthritis in the left thumb, and probably tendonitis in the wrist. Slants and quick side-to-side movements can be painful. My main instrument now is a Bill Hatcher 12-string, that I practice Hawaiian Slack Key music on every day. With the 12 strings I can do most of the work with my right hand. Same idea for the chromatic tuning in the bass. You can play most chords by going to the right fret and picking three strings without moving the left hand.

[Nic Neufeld]

I guess I have a hard time understanding...so the idea is to play bass (equivalent of the traditional upright bass) in a Hawaiian context, on a steel? That's a kind of thing you can certainly do in a pinch if you have low enough tuned strings, but I wouldn't say the steel is ideal for that.

That said, if you really want to pursue a "steel bass guitar", in answering your questions...longer scale is better, go as big as you can manage for clear tone at low frequency. Flatwound strings will minimize string noise. You definitely want a bass guitar type amp, and if I was going to suggest a pickup it would be a Lace Alumitone Bass Bar...I have one in my SX 8 string and the bass response is so clear, it beats out (at least on the low end) my other fancier pickups (vintage Magnatone and Fender, and Clinesmith horseshoe).

[Doug Beaumier]

As I remember, I found this info many years ago in an old Fender catalog and I posted it here on the forum at that time. Fender recommended this baritone tuning on the inside neck (closest to the player). That neck had wider slots in the nut and wider holes in the tuner shafts to accommodate very heavy wound strings.

Fender called this tuning "A6 Major & Minor". I never tried it, I put a baritone C6 on that neck instead.

[tab]E .032
C# .038
A .044
F# .048
E .055
C# .071
A .087
F .110[/tab]

[Allan Revich]

If I wanted to fill the bass player slot in a band situation, I would consider using fewer strings. I wouldn’t want to walk on my fellow band members parts, while also being distracted from my bass player role.

An interesting way to build a dual role instrument might be a double neck, perhaps a 4-string bass neck plus a 6-string lap neck?

[Chris Templeton]

Jonnie King made a very nice bass steel for Zane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-_2KSmfd6w

[Bill Groner]

Whatever happened to Warren Johnson? Didn't he make a bass lap steel guitar a couple of years ago????

[George Piburn]

This is not some big sales pitch, just food for thought. You asked for builders input.

I have 2 consoles 8 string here that can be easily adjusted for those large strings, both have the new B8 SteelTronics pickups.

1 is 24.5 scale and the other is 22.5 scale.

The 22.5 is a raw KIT and the 24.5 is fully finished out.

Save your self a ton of time - tools and effort.
Get the most affordable modern - desirable sounding - powerful pickup made in todays current market.
No need for outsourcing all of the parts and pieces.

[Bill Hatcher]

SA. thanks for your note about the guitar you want.

you will need a scale that is long for your bass strings to speak nicely and have good tension. baritone guitars today are 27" scale. danelectro 6 string basses and baritones back in the day were 30". those instruments give a good indication of the tensions that will be encountered.

if you want a low E that is the same as a fender bass, then i would go no lower than 27". it would be best to do some mock ups using the low strings and move the nut to different scale lengths to see how different diameters feel at different scales. the fact that you are using the strings at 1/2" above the fret board might let you get by with some unorthodox string gauges/scales.

you mentioned 3/8" spacing. if you want 8 strings, you might want to consider a staggered spacing that would give you more room between the big low strings and then move to 3/8" on the uppers.

you will need to have two sizes of machine heads. i have done this before on instruments i have made that have bass strings and guitar strings mixed. mini sized bass gears work just fine for the big strings and then standard size tuners work fine for the uppers. if you try to wind the large bass strings on smaller tuners, you run the risk of breaking the core of the bass strings.

you might also want to consider two separate outputs so that you could run say the lower 4 and the upper 4 through two different sets of EQ to balance the instrument out better. i have done this on several extended range instruments and it works great.

your tuning.....well if i was making this for me, i would tune it more in line with the standard bass instruments the rest of the world uses... this would give you a much more extended range, and if you have any standard guitar experience, knowing where the notes and bass lines are would be so easy. i would not go lower than E, as a low B string would need a scale that would be at least 34" to remotely sound and feel right. your tuning would be no problem to make, and in the future would be no problem to change.

you will need a good body mass to make the bass notes sound good.

we can talk more about it.

[Steve Atwood]

Nic, Yes the idea is to play bass in a Hawaiian context on a steel. I like the traditional upright bass sound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhKLNbVpIvQ

but prefer the sound of acoustic electrics, like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_p3Crn6nhM

And I think the sustain and slides you get with a steel would be good additions to the mix when appropriate (not when someone else is playing a regular steel).

To give you an idea of what I'm trying to do, here's a rough recording I made of Lei No Kaiulani on steel (Gretsch Electromatic with multibenders) and baritone ukulele as a backing track for practice, with a track on the Dynalap:

https://soundcloud.com/uninstructed/lei ... 4hsoTl4vYI

Clumsy, but I think the sound is pretty close to the acoustic electric.

By the way, I've been taking lessons with your Kumu Alan Akaka and he's been great. I'm not sure I'm worthy of having a Kumu but he is definitely that.

I have a question for you as a Hawaiian steel player - how deep a range should a bass player have to back up a steel? Thanks for your answers and recommendations and I will look up the Alumitone pickup.

[Steve Atwood]

Bill Groner, I think I remember that as sounding too metallic, not appropriate for Hawaiian, if I'm correct.

[JB Bobbitt]

Excuse my ignorance please, but is there a difference between a "bass" and "baritone" guitar?

[Steve Atwood]

Chris, Yes I've watched that video probably ten times - great player.

[Steve Atwood]

George and Bill H, Thanks for that input. I'll take some time to absorb it.

[Bill Hatcher]

Excuse my ignorance please, but is there a difference between a "bass" and "baritone" guitar?

baritone is tuned higher. the lower string is a B. this equates with the A string second fret on a bass. baritone guitar scale can be either 27" or 30"

6 string bass is tuned EADGBE one octave down from a standard guitar. scale is 30".

[Nic Neufeld]

Just tagging onto what Bill said...6 string bass in the context of the 1960s era Fender Bass VI is 30", EADGBE an octave down from guitar...sort of like a baritone extended further to where it can function as an electric bass. There are a lot of modern "6 string basses" that are just extensions of the modern 5 string bass, full scale (34 or more), with the low B and high C added. (to each his own...I'm a four string guy myself...although as a teenager I did pick up a Danelectro Bass VI...kind of a fun instrument!)

[Nic Neufeld]

By the way, I've been taking lessons with your Kumu Alan Akaka and he's been great. I'm not sure I'm worthy of having a Kumu but he is definitely that.

I have a question for you as a Hawaiian steel player - how deep a range should a bass player have to back up a steel? Thanks for your answers and recommendations and I will look up the Alumitone pickup.

Bass is probably my primary instrument (at least, the one I play out with the most, if not the one I play most out of love/interest)...although I don't play bass in a Hawaiian context much (when I've tried I realize I overplay for the style).

Anyway, one challenge I would be worried about...its the steel's natural strength but also in this case a bit of a challenge...sustain. An upright bass is going to have a natural decay, following the "thump", that adds to the sense of rhythm. The steel guitar is going to give you loads of sustain...to the point that you will have to mute it to get closer to the sound. And muting with your hands is much more abrupt, not the natural decay like on the upright bass. So I'm not sure, but one thing you may want to try is various mutes and materials for mutes to temper the sustain, at least on the lower strings, by the bridge. You don't want the bass just sustaining out like a MiniMoog or something

If you're learning from Alan, definitely run the idea by him! Playing basslines on the low strings is certainly not uncommon, although I think its often used more like a novelty. Of his tunings you will find a low C (3rd fret of A string on bass) in C13 and low B in B11. Those are pretty useful for faking basslines.

If you were wanting to play primarily bass on steel (rather than tinker with it here and there) I think I would look at a dedicated EADG neck. Possibly a doubleneck, EADG long scale, 6-8 string standard steel neck...with stereo or at least separate outputs so you could route it to different amps.

Check out what Mike Neer does with his (fairly standard) steel!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAdOsKQ90b8

[Steve Atwood]

Everyone seems to be recommending the standard bass tuning, but that's out of the question. That tuning was made to be played with the fingers, not a bar. The reason for the chromatic tuning is to avoid having to keep picking up and moving the bar to play single notes, therefore being able to practice longer.

It's also a good way to learn music. I like that the fingering for a major triad is always the same wherever it's played. The spacing of the root, third, and fifth fit well with my thumb, first, and third fingers. If I forget what the notes of any chord are, the notes of a scale, or the chords in a chord progression, I can look at my fretboard diagram and find them easily. I know the 7th is three frets above the top string or two below the bottom string. The major scale on any fret goes from do to sol and finishes 5 frets higher...

It's been an experiment but I'm finding it has a lot of advantages.

[Bill Hatcher]

interesting "diagonals" in your diagram. same note repeats itself on the diagonals.

[Steve Atwood]

It does look sorta like a "word search" puzzle. Not enough vowels though. The only words I see are GAB, and BAG, FEE, and FEED backwards.

[Steve Atwood]

By the way, one of my best puzzles made it to print yesterday. If any crossword fans would like to see it I could send you a copy.

[Dustin Rhodes]

Fouke makes bass and baritone lap steels. Not sure what tunings they use