curly chalker play,s out of tune

[Jerry Overstreet]

Little story concerning Chalker's influence. I had been playing just a few short years and doing a homecoming for small town america.

I noticed a gentleman watching me set up then came over and asked me if I knew Chalker tuning.

When I said no, he just shook his head and said 'if you don't know Chalker tuning, you don't know s*--' and disappeared. Don't know who he was and never saw him the rest of the night. I guess you never know when or where another steel player is going to materialize.

[Johnny Cox]

LOL.

[Jim Fogarty]

.......then came over and asked me if I knew Chalker tuning.

When I said no, he just shook his head and said 'if you don't know Chalker tuning, you don't know s*--' and disappeared. ......

You should've said, "Nope, but I CAN play the Curly Shuffle!!!"

[Ken Byng]

WHYNOT CRITIZE PAUL FRANKLIN.TOMMY WHITE.LOYAD GREEN AND OTHER GREAT STEEL PLAYERS,THAT ARE STILL ALIVE.AT LEAST THEY CAN DEFEND THEIR PLAYING IF THEY WON'T TOO. CURLY CAN'T.
THEY PROBLEY HAVE FLAWES YOUR SINSTIVE EAR'S MIGHT HEAR.

OK... I see, you're getting "loud"... and not unlike many who are loud, you don't listen (well, read, in this case).

Please feel free to read my initial post you refer to and my explanation on this thread. I did NOT seek to criticize anybody. I was talking about tuning (which we now all agree, is NEVER fully in-tune) and what I was trying to avoid by tuning a way I had always opposed. And I am fine with agreeing to disagree on that and the language I used to describe my thoughts. But you will NOT stand blaring around I criticize Curly or whom ever because I mentioned an example.

And if you're just after stirring up a little virtual storm... fine!
But won't be with me.

I said my piece and that's the end of it for me.
You are welcome to no try bold and red letters and even combine both too.
Most of us who have been on forums since the inception of home-internet have been there, fallen for it, picked the bait, wound up burnt and aggravated... and eventually figured, that sometimes, someone just wants to pick a fight and it's just not worth it.

I'm goin' playin' now... HOPEFULLY somewhat IN tune.

Bye!... J-D.

Well Mr Sauser, you have been around this forum for a while, and you should have known that your observation and personal opinion about Curly Chalker would attract some criticism for what is seen as a personal attack by some (including Willie Sims above) on a deceased legend of the instrument. I read your initial post and immediately thought that your view could be seen as controversial by many, even though you weren't making a major criticism of Chalker. One thing for sure, if you made your point directly and in person to Curly, you would have received the hair drier treatment. He wasn't a man to suffer fools gladly.

Sometimes it's better to to wind one's neck in and retain such thoughts in your inner self. I recall a guy from the UK on here a few years ago making a less than positive comment on Buddy Emmons' playing, which wasn't malicious in any way - just very clumsy. He came in for some savage counter criticism by a lot of folks on here, many of whom knew and loved Buddy.

[Roger Rettig]

This has been the second time (in my 20+ years of membership) that I have attempted to discuss such a topic. Common sense should tell me that it's doomed to fail. I think that it's unfortunate if we can't discuss a point of view in an objective manner; this is the 'Steel Guitar Forum', after all.

I thought I'd bent over backwards to stress that no criticism of Curly's unique abilities and monumental talent was implied and I didn't think I'd stated my case clumsily (neither did JD, in my view) but, in the end, I'm a bottom-feeder who should save his opinions for his own living-room.

[Dustin Rhodes]

This has been the second time (in my 20+ years of membership) that I have attempted to discuss such a topic. Common sense should tell me that it's doomed to fail. I think that it's unfortunate if we can't discuss a point of view in an objective manner; this is the 'Steel Guitar Forum', after all.

I thought I'd bent over backwards to stress that no criticism of Curly's unique abilities and monumental talent was implied and I didn't think I'd stated my case clumsily (neither did JD, in my view) but, in the end, I'm a bottom-feeder who should save his opinions for his own living-room.

I think the topic was worth it even to just hear Mr. Overstreets story.

I mean if people would get a little less defensive they could see this in a different light. Mr Chalker was out tune a lot because of his progressive approach to chord tones. On nearly every instrument tuning is a compromise and when you start stacking up different intervals it can make that more apparent. If Curly had some tuning issues it's because the guy was operating on a level well above the mechanics of steels in his day.

[Roger Rettig]

Dustin:

Exactly!

[Ken Byng]

..... Mr Chalker was out tune a lot ........

I can't let that one go Dustin. I'm afraid I have to disagree completely with your statement. If Curly was out of tune a lot, perhaps you could offer us lesser mortals a few examples from his considerable back catalogue. You shouldn't have any difficulty, if he was out of tune a lot you have a lot of his work to choose from. Why do people feel it necessary to attack a musician's work when he is no longer around to defend himself? That approach is precisely why a lot of the top players over the years have steered clear of participation of the SGF.

[Fred Treece]

in the end, I'm a bottom-feeder who should save his opinions for his own living-room.

That’s where my opinions get me in the most trouble, Roger!

[Dave Mudgett]

I have no problem with talking about and breaking down the playing of one of the great players like Chalker. I think there's a lot to be learned by seriously examining the many facets of the playing of someone so important as Curly.

I just don't see Chalker as being "out of tune a lot". And I still see this as, at least partly, a stylistic issue. Those of you who think he was out of tune a lot - maybe it really would be instructive to give examples. For example, I just listened through his Steel Guitar Counterpoint album, which is here in two parts:

Side 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7vR5tRAKLM

Side 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOtEDOgx8JQ

and More Ways to Play

Side 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruuaUinsqps

Side 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDS_u5TOPVw

and I honestly didn't hear anything that bothered me, in the context of the types of music he was playing, what types of chords he was using, his stylistic approach, and so on.

But to all this - I don't think it's reasonable to expect the same degree of "perfect harmonic" tuning frequently expected in basic triadic pedal steel harmony, for really complex chords and passages where tuning compromises are, IMO, demanded by the material. Of course, there are also the machine limitations. But I think a certain amount of dissonance is implied in some of the stuff he did. Add to that the fact that he slurred notes a lot, which is what I was talking about earlier. I personally love all of this, it doesn't sound out of tune to me, but I can certainly accept that some people may find that not-so-much in-tune. But I just don't see it that way. I look at him in the context of many of the greats of jazz guitar (and other instruments), many of whom played around with slurs and pitch the same way Chalker did.

[Dustin Rhodes]

..... Mr Chalker was out tune a lot ........

I can't let that one go Dustin. I'm afraid I have to disagree completely with your statement. If Curly was out of tune a lot, perhaps you could offer us lesser mortals a few examples from his considerable back catalogue. You shouldn't have any difficulty, if he was out of tune a lot you have a lot of his work to choose from. Why do people feel it necessary to attack a musician's work when he is no longer around to defend himself? That approach is precisely why a lot of the top players over the years have steered clear of participation of the SGF.

My reply should have said "if Mr. chalker". Either way I wasn't attacking the man's work.

[Duane Brown]

I had a dear friend Barney Horn who lived in Vegas and knew every steel player that came in to town. One day he called and asked if I wanted to go see Curley Chalker.

Curley had just moved back to Las Vegas and he had a jazz trio with his brother on bass and a drummer. We sat less than 10 feet in front of him for 3 hours. He played all the rides,fills and instrumentals and blew us away.
The thing I'll never forget is how much single string he played on both necks. Sometimes I thought Buddy Emmons had been cloned.

I had really good ears then and I never heard him play out of tune.

We think the greats should have no limitations but even Buddy blew the intro to Raisin'the Dickens in a Utube video of him in England.

Nobody's perfect but in person Curley could outplay 99% of the world's players. He was very friendly and I enjoyed visiting with him.
That night as the curtain went up for our show I looked up and sitting directly in front of me were:Curley Chalker,Terry Bethel and Barney Horn. You talk about intimidation... We played the show and Curley and Terry were very complementry.

[Bob Watson]

bOb said...."He sounded more in tune than the horns on most jazz recordings, in my opinion." If the forum had a "like" button, I would have definitely hit it for that comment. Quite often he made his steel sound like a horn section. I've always loved his playing and I feel that Curly Chalker was one of the most exciting pedal steel players to ever play the instrument. He always "went for it" when it came to executing very difficult musical ideas. I would bet he had a great batting average.

[Damir Besic]

I would give anything to see him play live, in tune or not …

[Roger Rettig]

Fred Treece: thanks for that!

I've cast my mind back to my earliest exposure to the steel guitar 'greats' in an effort to examine my reactions at that time (early-'70s). I'd just bought my first steel (an S-10 - 3+1) and I knew nothing. I had, however, been a working pro guitarist for many years and I've always had a decent 'ear'.

The two albums that blew me away then were Doug Jernigan's 'Digging Doug' and one by Curly. It was comparing those two records that made me notice Curly's very occasional pitchiness. I didn't hear it in Doug's work. Both these records, however, opened my ears and shattered any of my preconceived notions of steel guitar's 'limitations'!

Nobody's challenged me personally on this, but I do not think Curly was out-of-tune 'a lot'!!!

Dustin wrote:

"I mean if people would get a little less defensive they could see this in a different light. Mr Chalker was out tune a lot because of his progressive approach to chord tones. On nearly every instrument tuning is a compromise and when you start stacking up different intervals it can make that more apparent. If Curly had some tuning issues it's because the guy was operating on a level well above the mechanics of steels in his day."

He put it more succinctly than I did. Dave's post is good, too.

[Thornton Lewis]

I know I shouldn't, but I can't resist....

"Only cowboys stay in tune anyway." Jimi Hendrix

Maybe that's why a lot of us play country and western.

[Jack Hanson]

I wanna play outa tune. Just like Mister C.

IMHO Nashville Sundown is perfect.

[Ken Byng]

..... Mr Chalker was out tune a lot ........

My reply should have said "if Mr. chalker". Either way I wasn't attacking the man's work.

Some severe back tracking going on with an outrageously incorrect statement above.

Wish I had supersonic hearing like some where I could detect Curly's out of tune playing. Curly was playing on the edge a lot of the time, and would often throw a few bar slants into the equation. I listened carefully to the 2 albums that Dave Mudgett helpfully provided. Anything that wasn't 100% in tune is as near as damn it. I also revisited Curly's Nashville Sundown, and one of Ray Price's albums that Curly is featured on throughout. Curly's E9 work is as good as anybody's from that era, and tellingly, VERY in tune. Curly's pedal setup on his E9 neck was fairly basic according to the Winnie Winston book, and any mechanical or tuning issues when he was playing that neck would have been minimal compared to his C6 neck.

Bear in mind that "Big Hits " was cut on a Fender 1000, eight pedal according to those in the know. Except for one song that was cut on the Sho-Bud fingertip (which he didn't like either). The last two sentences were provided by the late Bobbe Seymour who had a number of conversations with Curly over the years apparently. The Fender cabled pedal steels are fairly prehistoric compared to today's superbly engineered guitars, but Big Hits shows what can be achieved when any guitar is in the hands of a master player of the class of Curly.

[Ken Byng]

I would give anything to see him play live, in tune or not …

Me too Damir, but there are a number of forumites who were lucky enough to hear him play back in the 70's and later.

[Dustin Rhodes]

..... Mr Chalker was out tune a lot ........

My reply should have said "if Mr. chalker". Either way I wasn't attacking the man's work.

Some severe back tracking going on with an outrageously incorrect statement above.

Wish I had supersonic hearing like some where I could detect Curly's out of tune playing. Curly was playing on the edge a lot of the time, and would often throw a few bar slants into the equation. I listened carefully to the 2 albums that Dave Mudgett helpfully provided. Anything that wasn't 100% in tune is as near as damn it. I also revisited Curly's Nashville Sundown, and one of Ray Price's albums that Curly is featured on throughout. Curly's E9 work is as good as anybody's from that era, and tellingly, VERY in tune. Curly's pedal setup on his E9 neck was fairly basic according to the Winnie Winston book, and any mechanical or tuning issues when he was playing that neck would have been minimal compared to his C6 neck.

Bear in mind that "Big Hits " was cut on a Fender 1000, eight pedal according to those in the know. Except for one song that was cut on the Sho-Bud fingertip (which he didn't like either). The last two sentences were provided by the late Bobbe Seymour who had a number of conversations with Curly over the years apparently. The Fender cabled pedal steels are fairly prehistoric compared to today's superbly engineered guitars, but Big Hits shows what can be achieved when any guitar is in the hands of a master player of the class of Curly.

Classy way of responding to someone who admitted to misspeaking.

[Andrew Frost]

We think the greats should have no limitations but even Buddy blew the intro to Raisin'the Dickens in a Utube video of him in England.

Uh- oh... Looks there's another few miles of bad road ahead on this thread!

Jokes aside, I agree with the sentiment. That's a great story Duane.

[b0b]

I remember that Carl Dixon heard Buddy Emmons play one note out of tune once, and was so astonished that he posted about it on the forum. Buddy got a kick out of that. I can't find it now.

[Ken Byng]

I remember on the old forum that many years ago, someone related that Buddy went to a club to hear Curly Chalker play for the first time. He arrived during the interval and someone introduced the two super pickers and they hit it off immediately. When Chalker went back on stage however, he played trumpet for the rest of the evening!

[Andy Vance]

I've watched this thread and keep wondering why anyone would feel like they need to defend Curly Chalker and/or his playing. Imo his playing speaks for itself. If you like his playing, great, there is plenty to listen to. If you don't, great, don't listen.

Everyone has their own opinions and none of them are fact, they are opinions.

The infighting within a community such as this, can really turn some off to the forum and the community.

Pretty sad to see, actually.

[Fred Treece]

It’s unfortunate this topic focused on a single player instead of the larger issue of playing in tune (and not another boring one on tuning!), which would be a healthy and helpful discussion. I would be interested anyway, in understanding the different tolerance levels people have for pitch, and who, if anyone, plays or ever played perfectly in tune 100% of the time.

The importance of playing in tune is obviously way up there. It doesn’t matter if it’s a singer, hornblower, violinist, or steel player, because beyond a certain level of inaccurate intonation, people will stop listening. What that level is - that is the real matter of opinion, not this singling out of an iconic player for a perceived shortcoming in that regard. That was a sure way for things to go to hell in a hurry, right from the start.