Fretting behind the bar?

[David M Brown]

Since I've been having to play alone during the pandemic, I've been working on A low bass tuning and the old books that had some self-accompaniment style arrangements.

That's fine in and of itself...but in a couple of arrangements in the books use an X to mark where you place the bar at one fret but press down to the fingerboard to lower a tone, sort of how Sonny Landreth plays slide.

I found this in the "Superior Collection of Steel Guitar Solos Vol. I" by Keoki E. Awai, SF, 1917.

Have any of you come across this technique before? obviously it only works on acoustic steels that have frets.

Thanks.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=322259

[JB Bobbitt]

I have heard of bending a string behind the bar, but not fretting. I am no expert though.

[David M Brown]

I have heard of bending a string behind the bar, but not fretting. I am no expert though.

Yeah, like you I am used to pulling a string up in pitch behind the bar, but I was surprised to see lowering the pitch.

Thanks for posting.

[Bill Sinclair]

I assume that you're talking about just pushing down one string behind the bar. I tried it on one of my lap steels that has frets and had limited success but it took a punishing amount of finger pressure to do it and would require much lower action than I like playing with. Interesting technique though and pretty cool to see that it's something someone thought of 100 years ago.

I've seen players (maybe Speedy West?) push the whole bar down to the neck for an effect but of course that just raises the pitch of the whole chord. Also takes a lot of pressure and risks throwing the instrument out of tune for an effect that doesn't sound all that different from just moving the bar up laterally. Looks pretty cool though.

[Peter Jacobs]

I can’t imagine doing that on a raised nut lap steel. I love Sonny Landreth’s use of the technique on his Strat so much that I came up with a Gsus4 tuning to kind of replicate it on steel (low to high G D G B D C). I usually ignore the C, but it lets me make suspended chords without having to pull the B string (hard to do accurately when playing fast, as in Sonny’s Back to Bayou Teche).

[Dave Mudgett]

I use that technique routinely on slide guitar - it's an integral part of my approach and I feel naked on a slide guitar not set up for it. And I'd really like to be able to do that on steel guitar. But if you've used this approach on slide guitar, you probably realize that it takes a fairly special setup to make it work well.

The key, IMO, is to have the strings close enough to the frets to be able to press the string down to a fret without deflecting the string enough to seriously detune the fretted note; while at the same time having the strings pass far enough under the bar to avoid seriously buzzing against the bar. And of course, you want it to slide well without buzzing. I find it to be a fairly delicate balance. I can get away with a bit more deflection with lower string tension, but given the same distance passing under the bar, lower tension strings tend to buzz more.

I guess the best way to approach this would be to build (or have built) a guitar with frets and string action to suit. All my lap steels except my Clinesmith cast aluminum are vintage, and the only ones with "sort of" frets are my 30s Rick B6 and 1940 Rick Model 59. And only the Model 59 has a potentially detachable nut and bridge. I've thought about taking the nut and bridge off and cutting new ones to try this, but I've never been able to bring myself to do it. And as-is, if I press the string down to the fret, the resulting note is a half to a whole tone sharp! Even with strings closer to frets, I can't imagine getting this reasonably in tune without some bridge compensation. I have found that on slide guitar, compensation requires a bit of a compromise between making the fretted and barred notes reasonably intonated.

I'm sure it would feel very awkward for most players to press strings down in the horizontal playing position - it would be sorta like doing the Thumbs Carlisle thing on guitar. But I also found fretting behind the slide on a slide guitar awkward at first, but got used to it fairly quickly once I really went at it.

I seem to recall reading that Chris Templeton had a pedal steel set up for tapping. Here's a thread on it - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=291820 - he notes the need for a compensated bridge. Makes sense. Reading further, it looks like he took the approach of raising the fretboard. And that would certainly be easier - just get a fretboard add-on to get to the right action. But that still leaves the bridge compensation issue.

I've heard some tunes from his Tapper CD - great stuff. This link will show you a few on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... ton+tapper

[Fred Treece]

Definitely not for a standard lap steel set up. In the year 1917, steel guitar was just starting to take off in popularity and publishers were spitting out instructional materials to meet (or probably exceed) demand. Maybe this is an example of somebody trying to expand on the instrument’s possibilities, or just to have something different on the market at the time.

[David M Brown]

would require much lower action than I like playing with.

I can’t imagine doing that on a raised nut lap steel.

The key, IMO, is to have the strings close enough to the frets to be able to press the string down to a fret without deflecting the string enough to seriously detune the fretted note;

Good points.

This trick certainly does not work on my electric lap steels, all of which have no frets and very high action as is typical.

The one guitar it works on is an acoustic roundneck biscuit cone resonator with a nut extension; the action is just high enough to play with a bar cleanly, but low enough to fret a note.

I'm still working on it, though. It's hard to hold a note and vibrato the bar.

[Andy Volk]

Ed Gerghardt had a Weissenborn built by Breedlove that featured frets on the bass side.

Info is in the middle of the article here: https://theweissenborninformationexchan ... interview/

[Tommy Martin Young]

Stumbled upon this bird's-eye view of the process in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aENTkTJagg

Light touch, light bar

[Fred Treece]

Looks and sounds like straight slide to me, Tommy. Good playing though.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Are you sure it’s a note? Most of the time an x mean a chocked note.

On guitar it’s a really usual technic where you strum a set of strings and mute the string you don’t need from not pressing that string.

Something like

X
X
6
5
X
5

On steel if you press a string below the bar you can get the same effect. Maybe it’s that?

[David M Brown]

Are you sure it’s a note? Most of the time an x mean a chocked note.

I appreciate your post, but the book in question explicitly designated the x in their notation as a fretting behind the bar.

[Jean-Sebastien Gauthier]

Very interesting! I would like to hear/see that in action! I guess you need a regular guitar with a slightly raised nut played like a steel.

[David M Brown]

Very interesting! I would like to hear/see that in action! I guess you need a regular guitar with a slightly raised nut played like a steel.

That's what I'm using, you are correct.

[David M Brown]

Stumbled upon this bird's-eye view of the process in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aENTkTJagg

Light touch, light bar

That's similar but not quite what the book had in mind.

First, the book used a steel bar not a slide.

2nd, the book had a 4 or more note chord with one note fretted behind the bar.

Still, it's a similar approach and the setup does work for this sort of playing trick.

Thanks.

[Tommy Martin Young]

Stumbled upon this bird's-eye view of the process in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aENTkTJagg

Light touch, light bar

That's similar but not quite what the book had in mind.

First, the book used a steel bar not a slide.

2nd, the book had a 4 or more note chord with one note fretted behind the bar.

Still, it's a similar approach and the setup does work for this sort of playing trick.

Thanks.

David, you're correct I just figured that the bars they were using back then were the thin type held between the fingers which facilitates easy lifts and allows the other fingers to fret without worrying about dropping the bar (similar to a slide) I found a picture of the author and to me it appears he's playing a standard round neck guitar and his hand is the position you'd use to fret behind the bar. I gotta admit that he's sporting some pretty snappy attire!

[Fred Treece]

Stumbled upon this bird's-eye view of the process in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aENTkTJagg

Light touch, light bar

That's similar but not quite what the book had in mind.

First, the book used a steel bar not a slide.

2nd, the book had a 4 or more note chord with one note fretted behind the bar.

Still, it's a similar approach and the setup does work for this sort of playing trick.

Thanks.

I’m not seeing or hearing any fretting behind the bar in the video. Can you isolate a time frame?

[David M Brown]

I found a picture of the author and to me it appears he's playing a standard round neck guitar and his hand is the position you'd use to fret behind the bar.

Thank you! Yes, the early bars indeed were flat and could be held a bit differently. I'll dig one out of my storage drawer and try it out.

[Eugene Cole]

Are you sure it’s a note? Most of the time an x mean a chocked note.

I appreciate your post, but the book in question explicitly designated the x in their notation as a fretting behind the bar.

I think many of us would love to see a photo of the page which showed the exact language and context of this descriptive language. And also some images of the notation/music.

[David M Brown]

I think many of us would love to see a photo of the page which showed the exact language and context of this descriptive language. And also some images of the notation/music.

Here's an example:



At the bottom of the page is the X and explanation. There is a second x w/ a line through it for the 2nd minor chord.