Steel Builders - roller groove calculator

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 23 Jan 2005 12:31 am

Farris, it doesn't really matter if any of us has the skills to build these contraptions or not. If you have a good idea, you can always find a professional machinist to build it for you. If you have the ability but no ideas, then you're in trouble!

Also, just about anything is possible if you have enough determination. If my brain can come up with a technical solution, I think it will also come up with a way to master the milling machine. After all, it has managed to come up with a way of getting half-decent sounds out a pedal steel guitar!

Karlis, that wedge is a very neat idea, uncomplicated and visually unobtrusive.
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Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Goodrich 120, Peavey Nashville 1000

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 23 Jan 2005 12:43 am

Why not just drill different size holes in the rollers?
If one string is .010" too high, open the hole up by .020" and the string will be level.
Simple, British ingenuity.
R B

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 23 Jan 2005 4:30 am

just wondering. if you had a set of brass rollers that fit the strings like you guys are talking about. will that change the sound of the guitar?
maybe better or worse? who could make these and how much would it cost?

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 23 Jan 2005 5:20 am

PER,believe me,no harm intended!just saying sometimes plain old common knowledge is so much better than all the fancy!i'd rather have something built by a person with years of knowledge,than a book genius!a guitar could come with a few extra gaged rollers,or have available extra gaged roller for sale,change to whatever you like best,and once you get what you like,your all set.if you ever change string sizes,change roller size.once thats set,you don't need to be adjusting them.and those little rollers would be cheap.Just my thought and not meaning to start a war at all. farris

Steve Cochran · Post by **Steve Cochran** » 23 Jan 2005 5:49 am

I have considered this since the last time it was discussed. I have an Idea that might help. You folks are much more experienced with the steel than I. I have never built a guitar of any kind and don't pretend to have any expertise in this area.... but...

1. It seems to me that the more metal to metal contact under the roller, the more string vibration will reach the body of the guitar equaling truer tone and greater sustain.

2. If the roller rocks while it's Height is adjusted then scale length is changed. (I agree that this would be minimal)

3. Possible solution: I Wish I knew how to attach a drawing of this. For the idea consider the shims at your local lumber yard, the ones you use when setting a door to fill the gap over and at the sides of the door jam. Individually they form very sharp triangles. Take two of them and place one on top of the other on a flat surface with the points of the triangles in opposite directions. Hold the top one stationary and slide the lower one toward it's point. You will notice that the height of the top one will increase as the second is slid underneath it and the top of the first one is and remains a flat surface.

Now picture it smaller and made of metal with the roller on the top of the upper triangle and an adjustment screw to slide the lower triangle under the first. Basically a sliding inclined plane under a stationary inclined plane. This would allow for continuous metal to metal contact under the roller. The roller would not rock since the top piece is flat and would raise straight up. It should be very stable and not cause problems with the guitar staying in tune.

I hope I've not confused the issue.
Steve Cochran

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 23 Jan 2005 6:49 am

Farris - me neither, there's no reason for mud slinging of any kind on the forum, this should be a place for co-operation and inspiration. I believe, and I think you agree, that the best results are often produced when great thinkers and great craftsmen work together (just look at Ed Packard's new amazing beast of a steel). Both need each other's input to perform their very best.

Steve: You certainly have a point about the metal to metal contact issue. IMO, most important is to avoid loose-fitting rollers - that can kill sustain totally. The change in scale length that would occur when raising or lowering a pivoting roller would make absolutely no difference - I doubt it could even be measured.

Isn't the drawing in Karlis's last post just about what you are describing?

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Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Goodrich 120, Peavey Nashville 1000

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 23 Jan 2005 8:26 am

Some good thinking going on here. All of a sudden the PSG is getting a critical analysis re construction materials and configurations, ..that is good in my opinion.

Lots of way to "skin the cat", ..never knew why anyone would want to do that though. Simplicity pleads for itself re configuration et al.

Re the solid pivot shown above, ..consider it facing down at the end instead of horizontal.

The Strat string saddles (miniature edition) would do everything but roll, ..Strat sustain/tone seems to please most country pickers.

So it all comes around to when do we need rollers, and how big should they be, and how should they be attached to the body/neck/ or other favorite structure. Should they be adjustable so you can have string top planarity, or bottom planarity for the capo folk (compensating for string stiffness
,"overshoot", and gauge tolerance.

Keyed tuners and long string length beyond the nut to me indicate rollers, ..keyless with short string length beyond the nut indicates no rollers = like Strat saddles for planarity adjust.

Great graphics above, ..nothing like a picture or photo to say a lot quickly.

Re the "body contact/sustain/tone" issue; I believe that the vibrations of one string exciting the other strings is the point of consideration. If it does it thru the body, the bodies Q at resonance(s)will act as a filter. To the degree that the strings vibration excites the other strings thru the bridge/nut, the effect upon tone/sustain will be increased (positive?). Simplicity pleads for itself again, ..a rod, and on the end usually occupied by the changer for the greater effect.

Now that will give a greater design problem for the string top planarity folk, ..how to make a changer (adjustable) so that the string top planarity is achieved.[This message was edited by ed packard on 23 January 2005 at 08:39 AM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Jan 2005 10:13 am

Here is another thought:

What happens if the strings at the nut run UNDERNEATH a 1/4 inch bar. That would make the tops of the strings absolutely co-planar.

Disadvantage: you cannot slide the steel over this nut, like some people like to do.

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 23 Jan 2005 10:38 am

what about brass though?

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Jan 2005 10:42 am

An adjustable STEEL, specially designed for Farris by a book-genius.

No more string rattle!

Just kidding, Farris!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Jan 2005 1:13 pm

Re the solid pivot shown above, ..consider it facing down at the end instead of horizontal.

Ed, what exactly do you mean?

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 23 Jan 2005 1:19 pm

Peter; The V slot and pivot are "in the direction" of string pull (could it not slip?). If they were rotated 90 deg CW the string pressure would always force them together, ...or am I missing something?

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Jan 2005 1:45 pm

Ed, the keys are on the left, so the strings are forced downwards on the left side of the roller. I was hoping this would force the saddle towards the right into the fulcrum 'blade'.

If the unit is rotated 90 deg CW, it can rock left/right, but not up/down. So how would the height be adjustable?

Once I understand the idea, I will try to make a picture.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 23 Jan 2005 2:09 pm

Perhaps I should have said down instead of 90 deg CW. If the string wrap angle was zero to the roller, there would be no force to push the blade into the V groove. The steeper the string wrap angle, the more the pressure of the string in the direction you want, ..a vector of force thing, ..something about COS of the angle comes to mind.

Per your drawing will work fine once the string is tensioned.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Jan 2005 3:20 pm

I think your suggestion is great.
It might look like this; much simpler and better sustain, I hope.

It also means that existing keyheads can be "shaved" off to make place for the groove and the saddles.

It can also accomodate adjustment screws from the bottom, as has been suggested previously.[This message was edited by Peter on 23 January 2005 at 03:28 PM.]

Clyde Lane · Post by **Clyde Lane** » 23 Jan 2005 3:44 pm

Peter how about a locking screw on one side and the adjusting screw on the other. That way there would be no problem when changing strings and just might help sustain.
These drawing amaze me. There could be a whole PSG designed here on the forum. How about a SGF brand guitar.

Clyde

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 23 Jan 2005 3:53 pm

Clyde, great idea! The locking screw, I mean.

Assuming the Forum has designed this SGF horn, who's going to build it?
Keep in mind that the design must be suitable to be executed on certain equipment.

Steve Cochran · Post by **Steve Cochran** » 23 Jan 2005 4:24 pm

Quote:"Isn't the drawing in Karlis's last post just about what you are describing?"

Very Close. Didn't realize this idea had been presented already. Great minds.... Well you know.... <Grin>
Steve

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 23 Jan 2005 4:50 pm

Bingo Peter. Again, great graphics! Karlis, ..best thread in some time!!!

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 23 Jan 2005 11:01 pm

Ed & Peter - this is getting really good! With every step of development, this device gets more compact and easier to build.

I'll start working on a prototype in a week or two, if I can only find the time.

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Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Goodrich 120, Peavey Nashville 1000

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 24 Jan 2005 12:54 am

Per, if this unit has 10 adjustment screws accessible from the bottom of the guitar (and maybe another 10 locking screws), there will be 10 (or 20) holes drilled through the top of the cabinet.
Will this affect the resonance of the body?
Maybe a cabinet maker could respond to this question?

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 24 Jan 2005 1:48 am

I suppose Ed is the one qualified to answer that, but my guess is that it wouldn't matter much.

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Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Goodrich 120, Peavey Nashville 1000[This message was edited by Per Berner on 24 January 2005 at 01:49 AM.]

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 24 Jan 2005 2:58 am

Per, in my ignorance I tightened some screws at the bottom of my P/P.

It literally choked the resonance of the guitar. So I learned the hard way.
There is more to building a PSG than meets the eye.

I think the holes will make a difference.
I have no scientific proof for that though.[This message was edited by Peter on 24 January 2005 at 03:02 AM.]

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 24 Jan 2005 3:17 am

Try pressing your hand down on the top of an acoustic guitar in the middle, near the bridge - the tone suffers badly. Try the same near the edges - nothing happens. Maybe this applies to a steel cabinet as well? Unfortunately I believe trial and error is needed to find out for sure,

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Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, Sho-Bud Pro III Custom SD10 4+5, Goodrich 120, Peavey Nashville 1000

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 24 Jan 2005 7:17 am

Per, check out any good sounding PSG: Most hardware is mounted near the edges.
I don't think that's a coincidence.
All trial and error has been done 40-50 years ago. A novice builder should research these trial and error results and use them to his advantage to create the next generation of PSG. There is no need to go back and re-invent the wheel.

Just ask Bobbe, he has a lot of information.
(just pretend you're a hot Swedish chick

)

See also: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/009389.html [This message was edited by Peter on 24 January 2005 at 08:16 AM.]