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Topic: Lowering string 3 to F# |
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:13 am |
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Having this change seems very handy, especially if other neighbouring strings did not change with it.
The wholetone travel between F#-G# would work well in a lot of chord voicings and grips and also potentially as a split w B pedal. Most significantly, it would extend the range upward of the B6 side of E9 (when Es are lowered) by bringing that 5th at the top of B6. If this change was on a dedicated pedal or lever and included a lower of string 9 from D to B,it would give you uninterrupted high bass B6 from string 9 to 3. At fret one this would be C E G A C E G between 9-3, with Es lowered of course. It would be something similar to the goal of a Sigler pedal, but would not shift the tuning so much in one sweep.
The 3rd and 9th string lower could be used ornamentally in E9 voicings without committing to a whole tuning shift.
Theoretical at this point though.
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 12 Sep 2020 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:21 am
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| I lower my 3rd string to G and that's a long throw on a knee lever! FWIW, most C6 players have a D on top! Just my thoughts. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:34 am
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| I hear you. String 2 right above it though would potentially yeild that 9th chord tone that is so commonly desired. (C# in B6 context). |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:36 am
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| A long long time ago I tried to lower the 3rd string G#>F# and it was indeed a long long throw. As John said, even the G#>G was awkwardly long. As taut as the 3rd string tension is, it's a surprising bit of physics....you'd think that it wouldn't take much to lower it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:38 am
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I also wonder what its lifespan would be.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:49 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| A long long time ago I tried to lower the 3rd string G#>F# and it was indeed a long long throw. As John said, even the G#>G was awkwardly long. As taut as the 3rd string tension is, it's a surprising bit of physics....you'd think that it wouldn't take much to lower it. |
Okay I'm starting to see why this isn't commonly done in spite of the musical advantages.
My string 2 (.015 ) lowers a half tone. I reconfigured for a while to get a wholetone lower a while back and was surprised by how much adjustment of moving parts was required, including moving the lever stop to accommodate more travel, on top of the changer adjustment.
I guess the thinner the string is the more this phenomenon is a hurdle.
Impossible though with an .11/.12 third string? |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 9:52 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I also wonder what its lifespan would be. |
Could be a pretty sweet 20 minutes. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 10:09 am
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I tried it too and it doesn't work very well.
Have you tried raising your high F# string to G#.
You can do some very similar sounding licks by starting with the F# pre-raised to G#, then release the pedal or lever.
You could set it up to raise both F#'s to G#. I prefer to lower string 6 a whole tone but alot of guys raise both F#'s.
On my push-pull I raise the F#'s.
Regarding the B6th side, if you change the order of the top 3 strings to 1-D#, 2-G#, 3-F#, you get that grip extension you mentioned.
That string order is the basis of the Bb6-Universal tuning.
On your 10 string Uni, that would mean that strings 5-2 are in the same order as 9-6 (B,E,F#,G#) and keep the D# out of the way on String 1.
You already know how to play that string order in the lower register, so not much of a relearning curve to set it up like that in the upper register.
Regarding the string-2 whole tone lower you mentioned, I also found that to be too long (too long to be on the E-to-Eb lever for E9th playing, ime) . I just quickly tune it by hand/ear to be in unison with the A-pedal-C# note when I need that C# note for B6th playing.
I typically play S12U but I also have an S10U. It's a 7x5 Shobud Pro-1. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 11:50 am
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Hi Pete
Yes indeed. Putting G# on string 2 and F# on string 3 is a logical approach given that that's the order of strings in the lower octave. I did explore that way of doing it a couple months ago. The G# on string 2 had a certain charm about it and having F# on 3 was great in many ways.
I ultimately found the concentrated E chord tones on strings 6 through 3 to be a preference, so I moved things back to standard and that led me to the question of whether I could lower 3 to get those nice B triads etc.
I may very well revisit that way of doing it though.
The 1st string G# raise I do have and love it. It is really nice on string 7 too but I currently have that pull doing something else. |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 5:16 pm
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Yes that's a great interview for sure. I hadn't seen that particular one until this summer. I had fallen asleep with headphones on and YouTube was on autoplay. I woke to the sound of Blue Jade. Because that version he plays in the interview has the canned backing track, I assumed it was some dude in his basement with a camcorder and band in a box. I didn't know it was Buddy. I was lying there listening to it thinking "man, this guy in his basement has GOT it!" Something in the way those simple phrases were being played was just masterful yet not flashy at all.
"Who IS this guy? Does he know how good he is?"
I looked at the phone.
Oh its Buddy Emmons.
Of course. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 12 Sep 2020 8:15 pm
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*Edited the original post. I had said 'raise' when I meant 'lower' string 9, from D to B.
My current string 9 is B that raises to D. Probably where glitch in thinking originated. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 12:42 pm
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| I lower 3d (.0115) along with 6th (.022W) to F#. Have that change on my Dekleys and GFI Ultra keyless, and use it a lot. No problems with premature breaking so far – after more than two decades with the change on my main Dekley. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 1:47 pm
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Used it for decades, but these days I simply use the 1st string F#-G# in reverse, and don't miss the pull at all.
Not all steels will make that pull. On those that will, a .0115 or .012 3rd makes it easier for certain . The old MSA Classic steels and my Carters did it fine... Williams, Bud,Desert Rose, Fessy, good luck. Could not get it to go on those. The Carters I owned actually made that pull with ease, even with an 011, had room to spare, and with minimal travel. MSA guitars made it cleanly, but with lots of travel, and not much room for more.. Those days I wasn't using an 0115 and that would have made it easier,
I did it on a ProIII years ago, but barely, and I had to take the changer finger out and have it machined for extra clearance to get it even close.. Was not worth the effort. You will need to move the pedal or knee stop quite a ways on most guitars.. I did it with a pedal, not a lever like most guys might want, which would be more problematic than a pedal..... its a VERY cool change when you get it to work... When I ordered my first Carter and discussed this change with John Fabian [RIP], he said it was no problem at all with Carter changers, and he also said lowering the string a tone would have NO effect on the string life... He was 100% correct on both counts... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 14 Sep 2020 2:34 pm
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| Sounds like its a plausible change with a heavy third and the right kind of changer. Thanks all for the input here. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2020 4:19 pm
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Maybe someone can post a pic of the Carter "Gear Down" setup that they used for the G#?
I recall they used a double cross-shaft method to achieve a better pull/leverage ratio. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 8:58 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
Maybe someone can post a pic of the Carter "Gear Down" setup that they used for the G#?
I recall they used a double cross-shaft method to achieve a better pull/leverage ratio. |
Hi, Pete. See the post by Ned McIntosh in this old thread. The gear-down bellcrank setup for the 6th string works very well... but it's obviously not really required since most steels don't have it.
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=2206595&sid=894ed6abca191de9bcfbeef8c3a4329d
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 9:15 am
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| Ii wanted the 3rd string lower when I ordered my new Franklin. Mr Franklin talked me out of it, even though the Franklin was capable of it. I had the Franklin 38 years and never really missed it that change. |
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