Adding knee levers to Fender; Husband says No

[Bonnie Saher]

I have a Fender 2000 10 on the floor,crca 1960's I would like to add 2 knee levers, as I am a newbie and it seems all the instructional material is geared to using knee levers. I am in Ca. so have talked to Blackie Taylor about it and he is ready to do it. My husband on the other hand feels that I am ruining a pristine collectable and does not want me to do it. But he says put it on the forum and we will go with their decision.My husband does not play pedal steel just regular guitar

[Donny Hinson]

The only problem I see is that, as you advance in your learning materials, you'll have to keep on adding knee levers, as most modern teachings advocate a minimum or 4 to 6 levers. My own feeling is that there is a lot of music in that guitar as it is, and what I would do would be to try to find someone who can show you how to get it out.

[Brad Bechtel]

I would listen to your husband. I'm sure Blackie Taylor would be able to find you a decent modern pedal steel with three pedals and four knee levers (or more).

Alternatively learn to play what you've got and don't worry about the knee levers. There's a lot of good music in that guitar even if you never touched the pedals, much less added knee levers. Figure out what you want out of the tuning you're using and work with it rather than forcing it to your will.

Good luck!

[Jim Palenscar]

As far as ruining the collectable nature of it, I'm not sure that it's a valid argument today. It's not like it's an old collectable guitar that has a value of 30-40k and if you paint it you've lost 1/2 the value. Today a Fender 2000 is maybe $1800-2k in fantastic shape. The 2000 can be reconfigured to get the common lever changes ((P1=E raises, then AB and P4 lowers the E's). You could add a couple of levers and not really (IMHO) lower the value and it would probably set you back $300-$500 if done properly. I'm not too sure what one would do w 10 pedals anyway but that's just me.

[Bonnie Saher]

Ithis is Bonnie's husband. Im not really concerned with the money. What I wonder is. Does changing the guitar ruin it. Perhaps it's not so old at 50 + years. But what about 50 years from now. Will someone see this guitar and think a%#%^* ruined it.

[Ronnie Boettcher]

Just my opinion, listen to your husband. I have no idea where you are with money, but go out and get a steel with 3 pedals, and 4 knee levers, minimum. Years ago, I had a Fender 400, and sold it, bought my LDG, and still happy today. That was in the mid 70's. Think you can sell yours, and buy another, with close to even trade. So then you have one that will last years for you, with no screwing around with parts, or problems. More time playing than tinkering.

[b0b]

Set up the 3 innermost pedals to do the common knee lever changes, and play it with both feet on the pedals. Here's how I'd do it:
[tab] "A" "B" "C" "E" "D" "F"
P1 P2 P3 ... P8 P9 P10
F#
D# -D
G# +A
E +F# -D# +F
B +C# +C#
G# +A
F#
E -D# +F
D -C#
B +C# [/tab]
FWIW, I've never seen professionally installed aftermarket knee levers lower the sale price of a vintage pedal steel.

[Lane Gray]

Michael Yahl is working on a no-drill solution for adding knees to cable Fenders.
These things never caught on with cork-sniffing collectors, so the value thing is minimal concern.
If you like that sound and want knees, go ahead.

[Stu Schulman]

Bonnie,I would take a trip on the 405and go to Jim Palenscar's shop!

[Bob Carlucci]

You will NOT ruin the value of your 2000 adding levers.. Fender pedal steels are NOT considered collectable.. Also, If Mike Yahl will make you a 2 lever bracket for your 2000, it will install in minutes with no holes drilled, and NO mods to the original components,, I know you will not ruin the value by adding levers because I had a Fender steel with 4 levers, and another with 3 levers, and both sold higher than fender steels in "original" condition.. Most steel players WANT levers, original or not... bob

[Ian Worley]

My first PSG was an 800, 10 pedals, no knees. It was originally set up as C6 but I re-jiggered it to E9 and removed 7 of the extra pedals.

Once I'd figured out how useful the E raise/lowers were I rigged up a couple of knee levers on a piece of 1"x1-1/2"x1/8" aluminum angle the length of the guitar and mounted it under the back apron inside the frame. It used only the two existing screw holes where the body attaches to the frame, I just used some slightly longer screws, no drilling required.

I used a couple of the extra cables, and made idler pulleys from a couple of off-the-shelf screen door replacement rollers to direct the cables so they pull in line with the motion of the levers, voila. Everything mounted either to the rail or to other existing screws. The whole thing was probably about $12 at Home Depot and 2-3 hours of trial and error to get it working properly.

I still have the git, it's since been converted back to C6 (with no scars). I don't have a picture of that setup, but it was pretty simple and completely non-destructive, and worked very well within the limitations of that instrument's basic mechanics (in other words, it was pretty stiff but tuned up well worked consistently).

Maybe Bob can post the pictures of the system Michael Yahl built for him, similar approach but much more high tech and polished.

[John Wilson]

I'd agree with the group that says don't modify it.
If you want to start learning pedals and levers, start with a guitar that was designed with pedals and levers.
You might get close to the sound and feel you are after by adding things, but you will progress quicker with a properly designed instrument.
This advice comes from a born tinkerer, and I love messing with tunings, mods, etc.

Losing value is always a consideration, but I defer to the experts here who know more so what your instrument is worth.

Greetings from Ventura

John

[Darvin Willhoite]

I added some levers to a 1000 several years ago for Craig Holden. Adding levers may actually increase the value since most players buy guitars to play instead of to look at like I do.

[Bonnie Saher]

Bonnie's Husband here thanks for the help. If I've gleaned the information so helpfully given correctly I came up with the following conclusion --- If I may use "Regular Guitar" terms Bonnie would essentially be modifying a Dean Guitar as opposed to a 1960 era Gibson Les Paul, and fine as I'm sure both Dean guitars and Fender Steel Pedal Guitars are - there would be no great loss Thank Y'all very much She can do what she wants ---Wife just informed me, with some insistance, it's a "Pedal Steel" not "Steel Pedal" anywho thanks

[Michael Voorhis]

Set up the 3 innermost pedals to do the common knee lever changes, and play it with both feet on the pedals. Here's how I'd do it:
[tab] "A" "B" "C" "E" "D" "F"
P1 P2 P3 ... P8 P9 P10
F#
D# -D
G# +A
E +F# -D# +F
B +C# +C#
G# +A
F#
E -D# +F
D -C#
B +C# [/tab]
FWIW, I've never seen professionally installed aftermarket knee levers lower the sale price of a vintage pedal steel.

sorry if someone's already said this, but you can't have both the c pedal and raise the e's on an old Fender. Every pedal has to control the string the same way, i.e. you can't raise the e string a whole step on one pedal and only a half step on another pedal. It can only be one or the other

[b0b]

sorry if someone's already said this, but you can't have both the c pedal and raise the e's on an old Fender. Every pedal has to control the string the same way, i.e. you can't raise the e string a whole step on one pedal and only a half step on another pedal. It can only be one or the other

You're right, of course. My error. I'm sure that some inventive soul has figured out a way to do it, but the stock Fender mechanism only has stops for a single raise and a single lower on each string.

[Dave Mudgett]

Ha, this thread is from 5 years ago.

I have what I think was Bob Carlucci's last Fender 800 that I bought four years ago. I have never been able to bring myself to drill holes in it to add knee levers - modifying anything old and Fender is generally anathema to me. But unless I can figure out how to do it without drilling, I'm eventually gonna do it.

I guess I should email Michael Yahl and see if he can run off some of those levers he made several years back. Three or four would be great, but with the 6 pedals on it, I think I could function with an E=>F on the left and an E=>Eb on the right.

For me, Fender pedal steels are about the sound, not the collectibility, 'cause they're not collectible. Well, I suppose that could change if suddently the Flying Burrito Brothers and Sneaky Pete go through a massive resurgence, I guess you never know. Wishful thinking? Yeah.

[b0b]

I often wish that there was a modern cable-pull pedal steel in current production. The gliss curve of a cable pull is unlike any instrument being produced today. You can't make that musical sound with rods.

[Jim Palenscar]

I've done this multiple times using an Emmons half-tone tuner for the E-F change when adding levers. When not adding levers I generally setup a guitar w 4 pedals so that the 1st pedal raises the E's-F, 2nd is the std A pedal, 3rd is the std B pedal, and 4th pedal lowers the E's.

[Anthony Campbell]

Set up the 3 innermost pedals to do the common knee lever changes, and play it with both feet on the pedals. Here's how I'd do it:
[tab] "A" "B" "C" "E" "D" "F"
P1 P2 P3 ... P8 P9 P10
F#
D# -D
G# +A
E +F# -D# +F
B +C# +C#
G# +A
F#
E -D# +F
D -C#
B +C# [/tab]
FWIW, I've never seen professionally installed aftermarket knee levers lower the sale price of a vintage pedal steel.

sorry if someone's already said this, but you can't have both the c pedal and raise the e's on an old Fender. Every pedal has to control the string the same way, i.e. you can't raise the e string a whole step on one pedal and only a half step on another pedal. It can only be one or the other

On a Fender 2000, you can. Double Raise, Double Lower Mechanism.

[Michael Voorhis]

On a Fender 2000, you can. Double Raise, Double Lower Mechanism.

Oh okay, I didn't know that. I only own a 400 and 1000. I had to rig up a way to have a tuner for the e string raise on the knee lever itself. It ended up working fairly well, but if anyone has any other ideas for a half-stop mechanism for a cable guitar I would appreciate some input. I love the sound of the old fenders, though they can be limiting without modification. I might just have to bite the bullet and get a 2000 if a better half stop device would be too tricky.

[Ian Rae]

The gliss curve of a cable pull is unlike any instrument being produced today. You can't make that musical sound with rods.

Please explain. All a cable does is the same linear motion as a rod, except around corners.

Now if the Fender changer finger tops have a different shape, that would make sense.

P.S. I wonder what Bonnie did in the end

[Bob Carlucci]

The gliss curve of a cable pull is unlike any instrument being produced today. You can't make that musical sound with rods.

Please explain. All a cable does is the same linear motion as a rod, except around corners.

Now if the Fender changer finger tops have a different shape, that would make sense.

P.S. I wonder what Bonnie did in the end

It can't really be explained, but it is real.. The cable Fender steels I owned [ 4 of them over the years], had a sound when "pulled" that was quite different that a traditional rodded guitar,,, The combination of the cable pull system, and the knife edge changer just had a different sound thats hard to explain but was easy to hear... The steel I sold Dave was museum/collectors grade so I understand his hesitation to drilling... Maybe Mike Yahl will hook him up with the brilliant
"no screws" knee lever system he designed.
The 800 I owned with THAT system installed was dialed in perfectly, and played absolutely without effort. One of the easiest playing steels I ever owned.. The pickup went out on that one early on and I had Tom Brantly wind me one with a coil tap, giving me the stock winding impedance, as well as a "hotter" winding making it more versatile. WHY WHY I ever sold that wonderful one of a kind instrument with its simple yet absolutely brilliant prototype knee lever system, I will NEVER know.. I regretted it as it walked out the door, and still do today, even though I am no longer actively playing except doodling around in an upstairs room full of dusty broken music junk, fishing rods, and VHS tapes in boxes.

I know this is an old thread, but in my opinion, even a clean all original Fender pedal guitar is NOT
"devalued" in any way by adding levers .

Now, if you put barn hinges and wire hangers under there, fastened with 10 penny nails, you have devalued the guitar.. However, well done, well thought out knee levers add value to ANY pedal steel that did not have them regardless of brand, and that includes Fenders.. A good pedal steel guitar with 4 levers sells a LOT faster and for more money than an identical one with no or 1 lever... Guys want these old guitars to play typically, NOT to put in a glass case to serve as a well heeled persons retirement investment as has happened to to many other great musical instruments... bob

[Donny Hinson]

b0b wrote:
The gliss curve of a cable pull is unlike any instrument being produced today. You can't make that musical sound with rods.

Please explain. All a cable does is the same linear motion as a rod, except around corners.

I'll give this question a shot:

Well, yes. Cables do perform a linear motion just like rods - but two other factors soon enter into the equation. The first is that a cable tends to stretch and compress as a load is applied; the more the load, the more it stretches and compresses. (This is likely a fairly small factor in the effect.) A larger factor is that cables tend to go slack and sag from gravity. And when the pedal is activated, this sag must be taken up before the changer starts to activate. This causes the slightly "spongy" feel in a cable-actuated system; it can be felt when playing such a guitar. It likely also can be heard or sensed by astute listeners. If the cables are pre-loaded enough to try to eliminate or reduce this sag, the cables can begin to activate the changer, i.e. "overtuning".

In a rod-operated guitar, there is no palpable rod stretch with the loads imposed, and the stiffness of the rods precludes, to a large extent, any appreciable sag that might cause sponginess in the feel or sound of the guitar.

[Bob Carlucci]

well explained by donny...I have always felt the later Fender 800/2000 cable/changer system was very good, very viable, and simply needed a few tweaks with some ball bearings, smaller more precision machined parts etc to make it comparable to a good rod system.. Never happened, never will, but the sound and feel is different from a modern rodded guitar in a good way... bob