Pedal Steel - HARD TUNING KEYS

Bob Gondesen · Post by **Bob Gondesen** » 18 May 2020 8:55 pm

HEY GUYS DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS ABOUT HARD TUNING KEYS
I BOUGHT ONE OF A THE FIRST EMMONS LA GRANDE SOME YEARS AGO AND NEVER HAD ANY ISSUES ABOUT IT ,
I SINCE THEN BOUGHT A DD LASHLEY LA GRANDE 3 . I STORED
MY OLD LA GRANDE IN THE CLOSET FOR ABOUT 8 YRS.
JUST THE OTHER DAY I TOOK IT OUT OF MY CLOSET SET IT UP AND
TUNED IT AND IT STILL PLAYED GREAT .
MY PROBLEM IS ,IT IS HARD TO TURN THE TURNING KEYS TO TUNE UP ,
COULD SOME ONE TELL ME HOW TO MAKE THEM TURN EASIER , I SURE WOULD APPRECIATE ANY ADVISE .
THANKS VERY MUCH
BOB GONDESEN

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 19 May 2020 5:21 am

Bob..Some of the early Legrande models came from the factory equipped with Sperzel tuners (my SKH did). Due to the type of grease that was being used in their manufacture during that period, over time it would gradually harden which made the tuners more difficult to turn. May be possible to disassemble the existing units, remove the old grease and clean and repack them. I simply replaced mine.

Bob Gondesen · Post by **Bob Gondesen** » 20 May 2020 4:16 pm

HI DAVID
THANKS YOU VERY MUCH FOR INFORMATION ABOUT THAT EMMOMS USING THAT KIND OF GREASE .I NEVER KNEW THIS .
DO YOU THINK IF I WOULD TAKE THE TOP SCREW OFF AND THE
THE OTHER UNITS BELOW IT, THEN DROP SEA FOAM DOWN INTO
THE KEY , THEN LET IT SET FOR A WHILE .
I HAVE USE THIS METHOD ON MY GAS LAWN MOWER WHEN IT HAS SET UP OVER THE WINTER .

IF I WOULD REPLACE ALL THE KEYS WOULD BE NICE BUT EXPENSIVE
ALSO I WOULDN'T KNOW WHERE TO ORDER THEM FROM.

DAVID DO YOU STILL PLAY YOUR EMMONS ?

THANK YOU VERY
BOB GONDESEN

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 21 May 2020 2:35 am

Apparently Sperzel will refurbish the tuning keys if you send them to them, but that's a big deal. I had a similar problem on my Super Pro and, following advice I read somewhere on the Forum, I took my drill with the drill bit peg winder and ran it on the tuner in question (with no string attached!) for a long time in each direction. That seemed to break up the hardened grease and solved the issue. It may not be a permanent fix (the grease will harden again), but it seems to work for now.

There are other threads on the Forum (Tony Prior, I think?) about disassembling a Sperzel tuner to clean and relube. I bought a single Sperzel on Ebay to experiment with this, but I couldn't actually get the tuner completely apart, so I decided not to go this route with twenty of them on my Super Pro.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 21 May 2020 3:24 am

These Sperzels were used on Sho Buds and many Emmons Steels during the same period. Indeed the grease hardens and the tuners become almost non operational. According to Sperzel they do not come completely apart which is a bummer and there are no direct replacments. They are different shaft sizes than both Klusons and Grovers and the pin alignments are also different. Quite the dilemma.

I removed all 20 on a Push Pull ( 1983) and used the procedure Sperzel recommended, soak them in a heavy solvent or even diesel fuel ! A few of the ones I tried to repair came totally apart but most did not. A real pain.

after soaking and getting as much of the old grease out as possible the tuners were better but not 100%.

Sperzel will do the cleaning if you contact them and request them to do it. For me the biggest issue wasn't that the tuners were bad but rather that they couldn't be replaced either with NEW Sperzels or Klusons or Grovers.

Perhaps someone here has found a replacement and can advise.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 May 2020 6:49 am

Some players do zero maintenence...until they have a problem. Did you ever oil the tuning keys? Try a drop or two on each one, leaving it sit for a couple of days. If that doesn't help, take them off and soak them in a solvent like naptha, kerosene, Liquid Wrench, or even WD-40 (which is a great solvent, but a poor lubricant). That will soften and reactivate the grease. Then, just oil them, remembering to re-oil them every couple of years, and you should be fine.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 21 May 2020 7:09 am

I have used this product with success especially for gummy changers.
You can get it at sporting goods stores.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 21 May 2020 7:11 am

I had the opposite problem with a couple Sperzel's on my 82 Franklin. They were loose and tightening the screw on the button didn't help. I wound up just replacing them all with new Sperzel's about 15 years ago. New ones are much better.

It took almost 2 months from time of order (from Sperzel) to get the new tuning keys.

Dave Hopping · Post by **Dave Hopping** » 21 May 2020 7:32 am

My '78 Super Pro has had the same problem--I just thought the tuners were stiff from the factory. When it comes out of the case again for its once-yearly tune up I'll try a little lube and Dan's drill-bit-string-winder procedure.

Bob Gondesen · Post by **Bob Gondesen** » 21 May 2020 11:57 am

MANY THANKS DAVID , TONY ,DONNY, ERV , JACK , AND DAVE , FOR
YOUR ADVICE . I WILL TRY AND USE THIS ADVICE , AND I HOPE
THIS WILL SOLVE MY PROBLEM , I GUESS I WILL JUST HAVE TO
BITE THE BULLETS AND SEND THEM OFF TO BE CLEANED IF I CAN'T
REPAIR THEM .
.
IT WILL BE WELL WORTH IT , I BOUGHT MY EMMON BRAND NEW FROM
HERBY REMINGTON , IT IS MINT FREE , NO SCRATCHES ,OR DINGS ,
I REALLY TOOK GOOD CARE OF IT , IT IS LIKE BRAND NEW .
I SURE WOULD LOVE TO KEEP THE SAME ORIGINAL KEYS .

AGAIN , THANK YOU GUYS
BOB GONDESEN

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 May 2020 12:46 am

The issue here isn't so much about regular maintenance which is always recommended as Donny stated , the issue, confirmed by Sperzel , is the grease they used for a short period, on a select group of tuners, hardened and would not soften.

Like most here, I've personally owned Steels and Guitars since the 60's and never had to take any tuners apart ! Adding a dab of oil here and there , sure, but never took a single tuner apart until the Sperzel episode. These specif tuners, as far as I can tell, can be found on late production Sho Buds and Emmons Guitars, P Pulls and the first series of Legrandes.

The other issue of note is, these Sperzels are FAT body tuners and on a D10 it is possible that the larger button top for C6th #1 will interfere with E9th #10. I did replace all button tops with the smaller button tops which are available from Sperzel.

Sperzel tuners overall are excellent, this issue was only related to a specific style and for a specif time window. The Sperzel support folks are excellent.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 May 2020 8:25 am

Soak them in kerosene for a few days, taking them out and working them a few times... Make sure they are sub merged.. Personally I would use gas, but thats just me, and I would not tell others to do so. After they loosen up, soak them a few days in 5w motor oil or atf, again working them periodically... That should do the trick,,,
If there is mechanical damage inside the tuner cases thats causing the stiffness, all bets are off, but 99% of the time, its just hard impacted grease that needs to be softened up...bob

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 22 May 2020 12:14 pm

I understand that the problem is that the old grease got hard. I have seen grease do that, it gets very hard indeed.

Have any of you ever tried removing the key and gently heating it for a period of time as an effort to rejuvenate the grease? I have no idea if it would work and suspect that if it did it would only be for a short time.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 May 2020 8:44 pm

That would be a good thing to try with a heat gun or hair dryer... It might not work long term, but would at very least be a good diagnostic tool.
If the tuners work well after heating, you would know they are still good mechanically.

Never tried heat myself, but it would probably be a good first step... bob

Loren Morehouse · Post by **Loren Morehouse** » 23 May 2020 7:36 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

Bob Gondesen · Post by **Bob Gondesen** » 23 May 2020 11:47 am

HEY GUYS
WITH ALL OF THIS GOOD ADVICE'S , SURELY ONE OF THESE
SHOULD WORK .
I APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR HELP, MANY THANKS

BOB GONDESEN

Ron Scott · Post by **Ron Scott** » 29 Jul 2022 3:10 pm

I was told by Sperzel that they were not available anymore and he said get some fingernail polish remover with Acetone in it. Soak the keys and then put Lith-ease white Lithium grease in it wherever you can get it in, and it should be good. That's what I did and had pretty good results.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 29 Jul 2022 6:43 pm

I replaced all of mine with Grover 18:1 ratio. Sperzels are 12:1. I had to drill out new holes for the pins. Grover 18:1 are much smoother and easier to tune.

Mark McCornack · Post by **Mark McCornack** » 23 Aug 2022 10:10 am

Hi Bob, Are these tuners equally hard to turn under load or unloaded? In other words, do you feel the a large change in resistance when tuning a string nearly at pitch versus turning the peg with no string on? If they turn freely under no load, but are significantly more difficult to turn with a string on at pitch, that sounds like something internally binding. If it's the same either way, maybe just old gunked up grease or debris in the tuner.. I might be wrong here, but just a thought.