Tipping the bar questions

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 12 Apr 2006 9:08 am

How many strings are touched by the bar nose, when the bar is tipped?

I suspect that there are usually 2 strings in contact with the nose.

When 2 strings are being touched, which string is the player typically picking - the higher string or lower string?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 12 Apr 2006 9:30 am

Unless you tip it WAAAAY up you will cover two strings. I guess I'd never thought about your question. Looks like I tend to have my extended middle finger tip over the string higher than the on being played and sometimes the bar covers the string being played and one lower. Blocking just kinda 'happens' as you move around.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 12 Apr 2006 10:03 am

When I tip my bar up, it only contacts 1 string (hopefully the one I am picking

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Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Apr 2006 10:14 am

Tipping is almost mandatory these days, even at the bar.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 12 Apr 2006 10:25 am

In the extreme case of the "penciling" technique, only one string is contacted at a time - the bar moving on and off the other strings is your blocking, because all the strings are muted behind the bar - as mentioned in the other thread (about "paintbrushing"). Someday I'll try to explain my "crayola" technique...

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 12 Apr 2006 10:34 am

I suppose I asked this question because of my dobro experience.

On dobro, I use a bar with quite a sharp cut-out. I do all of my single string work with a tipped bar, contacting only one string at a time.

On pedal steel, which I am quite new at, the bar tip, being rounded, seems to fall onto 2 adjacent strings naturally.

It appears that I will have to concentrate more on trying to contact one string only. From my dobro experience I fully appreciate the benefit of contacting one string only. It just seems to require more skill to accomplish this on pedal steel, and I was curious as to what the majority of players do.[This message was edited by Bryan Bradfield on 13 April 2006 at 08:27 AM.]

Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 12 Apr 2006 12:20 pm

on my dobro using a round tip slide I can hit just the one string easy.
same with the pedal steel.

on purpose, using my dobro, I do hit two strings. right in between them.
I do that on purpose because it makes both strings buzz in a wonderful way. to me, it sounds like a vintage blues recording.
I stumbled on that by accident. decided I liked it. and now I use it for one or two songs,

yes, I suppose it is against the rules...screw the rules sometimes.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 12 Apr 2006 6:52 pm

I discovered years ago that a common 3/8” radius on the Tone~Bar seemed to be ideal for managing to only touch (1)-str. at a time when tipping the bar! Therefore, I have always preferred the 3/8” radius, regardless of the diameter of the tone-bar. My favorite bar for years has been a custom~made bar which is 7/8” Diameter, but; has only a 3/8” radius on the tip, which leaves the very tip a little more blunt than perfectly round! –>C____

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“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 13 Apr 2006 4:39 am

I tip the bar for single string runs a lot. Two strings if needed no problem. I think that's one of those things that just kind of develope on their own like different string blocking technique's. I've done it with big bars and smaller bars with no trouble.

Rick

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 13 Apr 2006 7:26 am

John Bechtel - your 3/8" tip on a 7/8" bar - is that sort of shaped like a very blunt pencil tip?

What I am trying right now is a 1" stainless steel bar with a very rapid curve ending in a blunt (flat) face. That would make the curve (what there is of it) much less than 1".

Or are you and I talking about the same thing?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Apr 2006 8:00 am

My experience is that bars over 7/8" add little or nothing to tone or sustain! Buy a bar you can play with that feels comfortable and you can move around quickly, and forget all those "conceptions" about what bar makes the best sound. Until you get to the "near-pro" level, you don't have to worry about such intricasies.

And yes, a good player can play just one string with just about any bar. Never overlook the "skill factor".

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Apr 2006 8:20 am

a good player can play just one string with just about any bar.

I guess there's CAN and NEEDS TO. It really doesn't matter if you're doing it right. Covering two strings with the bar tipped, while playing rapid single string passages has never been a problem for me. Maybe I'm just sloppy and don't realize it.

And I have found that the silly 1/16" more between a 7/8" and a 15/16" makes a BIG difference for me. Sounds more solid AND feels better in my hand. I don't believe that one can generalize about such things. No two pair of hands are identical.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 13 April 2006 at 09:20 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Apr 2006 8:54 am

Larry, that "silly 1/16" may indeed feel better - that's fine, and I can accept that. But when it comes to sound, I challenge anyone to prove there's a significant difference. I've done studio work with both 1" and 7/8" bars, and I simply can't detect any difference in tone or sustain.

What someone thinks sounds better, and what actually produces a noticeable change that others can hear, are two different things. I feel that players who really want to improve their sound would do far better to concentrate on left and right-hand technique.

Dave Marshall · Post by **Dave Marshall** » 13 Apr 2006 9:20 am

Bryan Bradfield says:

On dobro, I use a bar with quite a sharp cut-out. I do all of my single string work with a tipped bar, contacting only one string at a time.

Newbie solution, and probably a bad idea: My bar has a bullet nose one end and a flat end on the other. How about you turn the bar around and use it backwards?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Apr 2006 9:34 am

Donny,
It may be related to the fact that I play 12 string guitars. The slight increase in weight required less bar pressure and led to the perception that it played EASIER and also fit my hand better. Re: the sound, I suppose what I should have said was that it requires less effort to have it sound good. I agree with you that, for most players, a 1" bar is excess baggage, both size- and weightwise. BUT I have seen great players play with a 3/4" bar and some play with a 1" bar. It is a personal preference.

And, Dave/Brian, yes, I think it is a bad idea to flip the bar around and play with the blunt end for single string passages. It is a very different technique going from a reso to a pedal steel. Dobro players often lift the bar and, at least I maintain that, lifting the bar is not a good habit to get into or a good technique to use on pedal steel. The blunt end works great going down from higher to lower strings but really gets in the way on ascending patterns. I've seen pedal steel players use a Shubb or even a Stevens bar, but I can hear it in their tone.

Just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 13 Apr 2006 9:42 am

and I simply can't detect any difference in tone or sustain.

As far as I know the only difference in sound can be detected when you use a different kind of material for the bar.I use "Chromesteel" for my bars.Most bars are chrome plated.I can hear a slight difference when I use my chromeplated bar or my chromesteel one.
But a change in diameters will not make a big difference.

Ron

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 13 Apr 2006 12:11 pm

Dave -

Turning the bar around is not an option. In fact, I'm not actually perceiving that I have a problem, whether I'm contacting one or two strings with the bar tip on the pedal steel. I'm not at a point where it makes a difference. On the dobro, it does matter. I perform with that. But the pedal steel is a basement toy so far. So, it was (is) just an academic question. I'm curious about how the majority of players perform this technique.

And if I can get some good players second-guessing themselves, and get them rattled, so much the better.

Bobbe - the way to avoid tipping at a bar is: don't stand up.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Apr 2006 1:30 pm

Larry, I think we're on the same page! I agree fully with your last post, and I also don't usually worry about barring 2 strings when I'm only playing one...proper muting is the key.

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 13 Apr 2006 2:03 pm

History.....Bobbe came at holiday time around
1965 or 66 saying as we got to playing our steels(His a mishmash of parts.....mine a Fender 400!!) Doug are you still playing with that old Stevens bar? You know you should use a round one! Doug, "but you know I can't hold one!".....Bobbe, "here try this & give me that Stevens you learned on, back with the Sunset Ramblers in 1947!" (check them out on the web)
To this day I have no idea what he ever did with the Stevens (it had been rounded at a shop on one end by our band leader!) The bar Bobbe broke me of the Stevens with was a tapered bar similar to the one John mentions in his post above! I really finally learned how to deal with a bar with a 1" bar from Bobbe's store when he was in Goodletsville by the Dairy Queen and Marilyn bought me the new D10 Derby. After a few months with that I sold it to a buddy & went back to a 7/8" bar & am doing OK with that.....(especially since my Excel is in the closet most of the time!)

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 13 Apr 2006 3:21 pm

Larry and Donny,

I've been playing a long time but I don't tip the bar when I play. I've seen players do it and it looks cool, but can you describe what it is that you can do by tipping the bar that can't be done with the bar laying flat. Thanks in adance. .. Jeff

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Jeff's Jazz

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Apr 2006 5:26 pm

Whazzamatta, Jeff
You mean you haven't heard that you can't play jazz without tipping the bar??????

I've just been watching guys who do for so long and usually emulate guys whose playing I admire.

I doubt there's really much you can't do without using that technique but, FOR ME, it is easier to play some single string stuff, particularly when moving the bar from string to string on different frets. Just seems to take some of blocking away from the RH and makes playing fast single string stuff easier to pull off cleanly.

It's not necessary, but many do. Works for me. YMMV.

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edit
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Some of the reason I do it may be the fact that I've always played a 12 string. You learn quickly that you lift the back end of your bar while playing the higher strings to avoid that involuntary cello solo on the lower ones.
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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 13 April 2006 at 06:29 PM.]

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 17 Apr 2006 3:35 pm

For me tipping the bar is just part of "squeezing" the notes out of the strings.

Sometimes I even play with the bar parallel to the string and sort of "wobbel" the nose of it from one string to the next (makes a great bird whistle, sounds like a wren

But seriously, you can have a great effect on the tone of single notes simply by how you use the bar... and using the nose is very common.

You know, I wonder if the use of pedals, decreasing the knowledge and use of forward and backward slants, is developing a new style of bar use on steel guitar... one where the pedals and KLs are looked to to do it all? Hope not.

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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Apr 2006 5:44 pm

...but can you describe what it is that you can do by tipping the bar that can't be done with the bar laying flat.

That almost sounds like I'm being baited, doesn't it?

Well, aside from the obvious stuff (like playing 8 barred against 10 open, or 5&6 barred against 8 open) the main benefit I see is that it prevents a lot of extraneous string noise. Dragging the bar over a bunch of wound strings that you're not voicing makes noise, and you can't eliminate all of it with your right hand blocking. It's also tiring, barring strings you're not playing. Now, let's translate the technique over to lead guitar...do you ever see lead players barring 6 strings and playing one? Five strings and playing one? Two strings and playing one?

Probably not. They're concerned with playing ease, economy of motion, and noise, just like we are. Right? IMHO, I think moving the bar "flat" and playing single notes is also slower than tipping the bar and playing the same notes. I'm no speed demon, but I know it helps me to play faster!

Jeff, you're what I would term an "advanced player", but if your technique lets you do all that you want, then indeed, you have no reason to change.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 17 April 2006 at 06:49 PM.]