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Topic: Jazz on E9 vs C6 |
John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2020 4:02 pm |
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I’ve been watching Buddy and Hal Rugg on the Bell Cove video over the last week.
Really inspiring.
Hal is a very accomplished and like-able steeler. Buddy seems like an effortless genius. Not many pedal steel players capture the jazz time feel and freedom of improvisation like Buddy did. Juaquin Murphey comes to mind. Paul Franklin. I’m sure there are more.
My question is, whether or not to delve into C6.
On the Bell Cove video, both guys play the C6 neck on blues and standards.
I’ve been on Ext E9 for a few years. I have seen players like Doug Livingston and Travis Toy improvise freely on more complex chord changes, on the E9 neck.
As a 6 string player, I can get around on standards like Stella By Starlight, and I’m comfortable with the theory, and know how to use altered and diminished scales in my improvs.
Am7b5 and D7b9 are physically easy chords to play on a 6 string guitar.
I can play pop tunes in E9, but I wouldn’t say I improvise freely. I don’t really know where D7b9 is in Ext E9. I don’t use a diminished scale on steel. (Ok, I’d raise the E’s and pray)
I’ve avoided the C6 neck, thinking it is a rabbit hole. Pedal steel is complex enough without adding another tuning.
And yet, Buddy and Paul Franklin play C6 with such freedom.
Is the C6 neck really that much easier to play altered chords? Improvise over more complex chord changes?
Or is my time better spent exploring the Ext E9 neck?
Thanks, John |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2020 4:28 pm
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Great question, John! I hope guys like Jim Cohen, Rick Schmidt, Johnny Cox, Earnest Bovine will chime in. Earnest does all his classical work on extended E9! I don't have the answers, jazz isn't my jam.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Mar 2020 5:29 pm
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I don't have time to play jazz, much as I'd like to, but I can offer two observations.
First, if like me you play a universal then the question goes away.
Second, learning the C6 (or B6) is not like learning E9 where every note is accounted for. C6 is more intuitive. The chords you play generally don't contain the root and can have more than one name depending on what that absent root is. Also what are called 7th chords often contain unacknowledged 9ths which automatically fatten the texture. I would also suggest that it is better suited to altered chords, simply because it's designed for them.
So learning it is not just like learning E9 but with a different setup - it's a whole new experience you deserve to have!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2020 5:51 pm
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Nice tune, Bob.
John |
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John Spaulding
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 4 Mar 2020 7:54 pm
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Well, when I think jazz, I think C6 but that's just cuz I was trained that way (mostly by Buddy). But I'm always so impressed with what Randy Beavers, Travis Toy, Jody Cameron and some others are getting out of the E9 tuning, based off of using the 9th string as a root (instead of as an "avoid string"!) Not to mention Reece's work on B6 Universal. (Or Morrell's on nonpedal for that matter.)
If I were starting now, I might just stick with E9 and explore that 9th string layer (which I'm finally starting to do anyway.) But I haven't yet read Paul's writings on the subject and look forward to doing so as I admire him immensely (and he was another of my C6 teachers back in the 80s...)
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 Mar 2020 10:17 pm
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Jim, since I went the universal route that 9th string approach is no longer obvious but it sounds fascinating.
What you said about starting over makes sense, although I'm surprised to hear it coming from such a master of C6 as yourself - I'd expect you to be plugging it for all it's worth! But it certainly seems possible to get just about anything out of the E9 neck on a modern setup. The first time I heard Jody Cameron I assumed it was C6.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tal Herbsman
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 6:50 am
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| Jim, can u please explain the 9th string as root concept briefly? |
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Tal Herbsman
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 8:14 am
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| Brilliant. Thanks. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 9:14 am Re: Jazz on E9 vs C6
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| John Goux wrote: |
I don’t really know where D7b9 is in Ext E9.
Thanks, John |
Any minor triad is the b9+ of the major chord a half step below it. So Ebm can imply D7b9+. Adding a 6th to the minor triad (Ebm6) adds the b7 voicing to the D.
On Ext.E9, Ebm6/D7b9+ is at fret 4 open, on all strings except 12, 8, 4 (the Ab’s), and 2 (A).
Also fret 9 pedals down with E’s lowered.
You can also voice the Ebm as a m9th with pedal A, and give the D7 a #9 “Jimi Hendrix” sound. One of Winnie’s favorite tricks in his book.
As far as the diminished 7 chord goes, you probably already know that all 4 positions for it work as a dom7b9. You don’t even need whole-half scale to make that sound good. Just raise your E’s and play D#dim7 (D7b9) every 3 frets and you’re there. Or play the straight dim triad on open strings 11-10-9-6-5 at the same frets as with raised E’s, 1-4-7-10
That’s my attempt to thoroughly conflubstergate the issue. |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 11:06 am
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Consider these 4 note voicings and see if they sound familiar.
They are inversions of an Em7 and a rootless B7b9.
| Tab: |
F#-----------------------------------------
D#-----------------------------------------
G#-----------------------------------------
E -----------------------------------------
B ----3----4---5----7---8---10---10A--13---
G#----3----4---5B---7---8---10---10B--13---
F#-------------5------- 8--------10--------
E ----3----4R-------7R--8L--10R--10---13R--
D ----3L---4---5----7-------10--------13---
B -----------------------------------------
Em7 B7b9 Em7 B7b9 Em7 B7b9 Em7 B7b9
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One can play around with using only the two lowest notes in those voicings, two middle notes or the two upper notes of each voicing. or any 3 notes of those voicings will also work. But to begin with, it is probably best to get all four notes in those voicings to sink in.
B.Erlandsen |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 11:51 am
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Nice tab, Bengt. I really have got to learn how to do that  |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 1:32 pm
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and when it sinks in one will probably realize that the same voicings will substitute and work just as good as G6 and D7b9(rootless) 
B.Erlandsen |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 1:56 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| The chords you play generally don't contain the root |
have to disagree. I play a lot of solo C6 (mainly for my own enjoyment) and that's something I really enjoy about C6 is the ability to play pretty much any chord I need and almost always include the root.
I realize that it's all the same notes, regardless of tuning, especially when you're playing an extended or Universal tuning. but I approach each neck differently and I would say that the C6 is better suited for jazz and altered chords, as well as fuller chords and big wide rakes.
I highly recommend delving into C6, especially if you're playing songs with more complex chords. it's great musical education and satisfying in ways that E9 isn't, at least in my experience.
_________________
1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 2:33 pm
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Scott, I did say "generally" and I was imagining music where you leave the bass notes to the bass player.
But I agree with everything you say - if you analyse it rather than taking the intuitive approach it's fascinating.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 5:54 pm
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Excellent Jazz chords from Brengt and Fred .
Brengt, if you lower your dominant chords in the tab by 2 frets, it creates a 2-5-1 Em7 A7b9 to Dmaj or Dminor. A nice resolution chord is the D string open position AB pedals strings 9-7-6-5-4. Release the B pedal and you have Dmaj9#11. That a rare chord to find on the E9 coped.
I’d add, and easy move, G7b913(diminished scale) has major triads starting on G and moving in any direction in 3 fret jumps, the Db triad in particular is 1/2 step above the resolution chord of C. These major triads are well suited to E9 pedal steel and are easy to play in the standard grips. Add single string passing notes between the chords chunks and you have a Joe Pass favorite.
An easy way to play the diminished scale is to lower Str 2 to D, and alternate pick blocking strings 4 and 2 down and back up in 3 fret jumps.
Same thing with Str 1 and Str 4, no pedals, alternate them down in 3 fret jumps.
For a dominant7alt chord you begin 1 fret above open position.
I found some Freddie Green inversions that are easy to play, and work for both major 2-5-1 and minor 2-5-1, because FG did not use the 5th of minor chords. Yay.
Em-A7-D. Also Em7b5-A7-Dminor.
Play Strings 10-9-6, Fret 5(same as resolution chord), B pedal, release B pedal for A7 dominant, then resolve to standard grips D major or D minor at fret 6, Es lowered.
This works with Emin7 A7(x) to Dmaj7, and works with Emi7b5 to A7alt to Dminor.
It’s and easy way to negotiate Minor7b5 chords by skipping the 5th degree. Sounds rich being in the lower register of the instrument, too.
Cheers, John
Last edited by John Goux on 6 Mar 2020 8:40 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 7:09 pm
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Tuning the 9th string to C# (raise to D on a lever) and Lowering the 7th string a half tone on a lever will open a world of rake chords from strings 10-3, in individual lever/pedal, and lowered E's combinations, etc etc.
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 11:37 pm
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I lower Str 9 to C# on the same lever as my E lowers. On one guitar. It gives you the 2 degree in major and minor pentatonic scales, 5 frets above open. I’m yet to find a situation where I don’t want it lowered with the Es.
It also the 2 in our open position B7, Improving upon that ugly low Dnat.
John |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 6 Mar 2020 6:23 am
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Lowering the 7th a half on a seperate lever will open a can of strummable 9th's and subs in combination with E's lowered. I lower mine on the LKR which also lowers 2 a full tone and raise 1 a full tone. My second string half drop is in the same lever as the 9th raise. The reason i tune it to C# is so i don't have to use a lever to lower the 9th with pedals down whilst using these combo's, loads of fat chords and strum rake. I play a fair amount of Western Swing and this helps me a lot on a single 10.
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A.K.A Chappy. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Mar 2020 8:41 am
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| John Goux wrote: |
Brengt, if you lower your dominant chords in the tab by 2 frets, it creates a 2-5-1 Em7 A7b9 to Dmaj or Dminor. A nice resolution chord is the D string open position AB pedals strings 9-7-6-5-4. Release the B pedal and you have Dmaj9#11. That a rare chord to find on the E9 coped.
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That chord is in the Winnie book. He ends Londonderry Aire with a slow 9-8-7-6-5A-4 strum.
This discussion is sealing the deal on ext.E9 for me. I don't play a double neck, and probably won't ever. We all know C6 is a great jazz tuning, because so many great players seem to rely on it for that, for whatever reason. It's not going to happen for me, mainly because I'm out of time for learning another tuning and out of money for another guitar. But it also seems E9 has just been sitting at the back of the Jazz bus waiting for its stop. I'm glad it came to my house. |
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