Price/Quality Question

Brad Richard · Post by **Brad Richard** » 8 Dec 2019 12:16 pm

Aside from intangibles like brand name and "vibe", what makes an $800 lap steel superior to say, a $250 recording king? I've heard the rk referred to as "a great steel to get started with" and such. What makes it a starter instrument? And if you had an rg-32 and wanted to upgrade, besides GAS (a completely legitimate motivation which afflicts all of us), for what reason would you be paying the extra?

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 8 Dec 2019 12:55 pm

Good question. To me, the differences are about attention to detail - fit and finish, how clean the nut and bridge are (and are they made from good materials, scale accuracy. Also, the quality of the pickup, pots and hardware. Mostly, itâ€™s feel, though, and â€œbetterâ€ is going to be different for each of us â€” string spacing and height, weight and balance, etc.

More expensive guitars might be better built all around, easier to play and better sounding. Or might not.

Also, a cool paint job.

Glenn Wilde · Post by **Glenn Wilde** » 9 Dec 2019 3:28 am

That's a good question. I have a few steels ranging from a Kay to a Fender Deluxe and i have to say that the Fender is better in just about every way, but especially in its sound, it just sustains and sounds like a steel should. I love and play them all but the difference is palpable.

David Matzenik · Post by **David Matzenik** » 9 Dec 2019 4:02 am

If the $800 and $250 guitars have the same pickup, the difference might be negligible to the ear, but that is probably not going to be the case due to variables. You will pay for design, finish and electronics, but a good player will make the cheaper guitar sound pretty good anyway. For people just starting out, there is no point spending a lot of money, because their tastes are going to change, the more they appreciate the instrument. Once they have a sense of direction, its worth spending some money.

David Ball · Post by **David Ball** » 9 Dec 2019 5:42 am

Even on a solid body guitar like a lap steel, the body has acoustic properties that end up shaping the tone of the instrument beyond just the sound of the pickup. A good example in my case is a Sonny Jenkins 10 string I have. Played unplugged, it has a very rich and loud acoustic tone. This tone is there when plugged in too. On the other hand, I have other lap steels that really don't have any acoustic tone to them and lack any particular character when plugged in.

I don't know that this necessarily has anything to do with price, though I think you're more likely to find it in a handmade instrument than a factory made one.

Dave

Chris Akeley · Post by **Chris Akeley** » 9 Dec 2019 7:14 am

Personal preference enters into it as well. I came to lap steel from dobro, and I found that on some entry-level lap steels, the string spacing that was much too close for me. (I had a gretsch.) I needed one that felt more like a dobro.

Beyond that, in that price range, I'd say it's all about the pickup. Better ones cost more. Pickups that sound great through a clean amp cost more. Trust your ears.

Brad Davis · Post by **Brad Davis** » 9 Dec 2019 8:10 am

The RK lap steels have very cheap electronics and are made of cheap thick glossy painted mystery wood. Cheap chintzy little pots and wires and caps with no shielding and just okay pickups. The electronics you can upgrade but not the wood. If RK were selling you a slab of good alder or ash or something I would say it doesn't matter much, but they're not. Look in the cavities at the cheap fibrous tropical mystery wood and ask yourself whether this looks like the best material for maximum tone and sustain. Lap steels have enough trouble with tonal damping due to smaller mass and laying on your lap.

That's not to say an RK can't sound any good, but better materials have more potential. Whether some of the higher-cost imports really deliver I don't know, but something like a Georgeboards guitar definitely does. Also vintage Gibson and Fender and some other lap steels. If you just want something to learn on it doesn't matter that much, but there is definitely a difference in feel and tone in a guitar that has higher quality components and thus costs more, vintage or otherwise.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Dec 2019 11:09 am

I see perfectly nice vintage 6-string lap steels out there in the $200-300 range pretty routinely. Various Valco (Supro, Airline, National, and more), Magnatone, Oahu, whatever. To my tastes, they blow away most of the cheap new lap steels I've tried. But getting a reasonable price on a vintage steel is catch as catch can. It's not like you can order a new one from a warehouse full of 'em.

To my tastes, standard Gibson-style P90s and humbuckers, as found on the RK RG-32/35, respectively, are cool lap steel pickups for some things. But I probably prefer something less midrangey for most things. Depends on what sound you're going for.

I don't necessarily think the relationship between guitar quality and price is particularly linear. I sometimes play inexpensive stuff that sounds and feels great, and then expensive stuff that leaves me cold. Beyond that, I think as one gets more and more expensive, there tends to be saturation in the marginal improvement vs. price curve. And then again, there are some relatively more expensive guitars like the Todd Clinesmith steels I've played that are unbelievably great. In other words, sometimes you get what you pay for, other times not so much, and yet other times you get what you can't buy for just money. All my opinion, of course.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 9 Dec 2019 12:06 pm

Dave Mudgett wrote:I see perfectly nice vintage 6-string lap steels out there in the $200-300 range pretty routinely. Various Valco (Supro, Airline, National, and more), Magnatone, Oahu, whatever. To my tastes, they blow away most of the cheap new lap steels I've tried.

I wholeheartedly agree 100%.

If you have the proper tools and know how to use them, another avenue worth pursuing is what I term "rescue" instruments. I have purchased several carcasses over the years, and rehabbed them into fully functional instruments that will knock the scrotum off every modern imported lap steel I've ever played.

I favor postwar Gibsons for various reasons, and they often fall victim to those who scavenge lap steels for their vintage fittings, electronics, and pickups. (Is there a 1957-58 Ultratone in existence that still sports its original factory PAF?)

By the time you've installed George's refit kit (if necessary), a good-sounding pickup, decent electronic components, tuners that won't snap off in your hand, and properly shielded the cavities of your shiny new import, you'll have almost as much $$$ invested as a vintage American instrument would cost you in the first place. And your import? Good luck selling it for $50.00, let alone what you've put into it.

Just my opinion.

Brad Richard · Post by **Brad Richard** » 9 Dec 2019 3:47 pm

I really appreciate the responses and I do get it. The problem is, I've got an excess of want and a lack of funds. I'd like to get another lap steel at some point, but can't afford to blow it. I've thought about building one, but by the time I buy some quality components, I could probably buy a decent used steel.

I bought a Rogue just to try playing LS. I ended up using a GBs retro kit for a 22-1/2" scale, replaced the pots and put in a Bill Lawrence pup I had. It's pretty good. I can't even play it that well yet so I really have no reason to want something more, but I still do.

I think if I get serious about a new lap steel, I'll run it by you folks on the forum before doing anything.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 Dec 2019 4:45 pm

There aren't a lot of vintage guitar shows in the upper Midwest - there have been a few over the years in Minneapolis, Red Wing, Madison, and Milwaukee; and some pretty good ones in Chicago. But if you're traveling, there are quite a few across the country. At these shows, I usually see at least a few, and sometimes quite a lot. My impression is that most guitarists just don't appreciate steels at all. As a result, some dealers just want to cash them in and will sometimes sell them cheap so they don't have to pack them back up and take them home. I've picked up Valcos, Magnatones, and even sometimes Fenders and Ricks for very nice prices, and seen even more that I just let pass.

And Jack is correct - some people do rape Gibsons for the P90s and humbuckers, and the old potentiometers (and Fender Champions for the Tele-type pickups) and sell the shells cheap. I personally don't mess with them because I still see intact ones reasonable, but if it's cheap enough it might be worth a shot.

Anyway, you have a steel now, so you can afford to be patient until the right thing comes along.

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 14 Dec 2019 5:23 pm

The most expensive part on a steel guitar is usually the pickup... that's why the cheap imports cost so little.
IMO the wood used does not make that much difference in sound.
(I have built dozens of lapsteels using Alder, Poplar, Oak, Cherry, Mahogany, Hickory, Ash, Maple, paduk, and other woods I can't even name)

The main difference I find in the woods, is weight, and hardness. The sustain difference is very subtle.

The quality of the Tuning machines is another expense, and adds to the overall "feel" and stability of the instrument.
Hardware, and electronics are also a factor in the reliability of the steel guitar, but are easily upgraded.

Finally you get what you pay for, so as long as the cheaper steel guitar is not made of Balsa Wood, you can buy replacement parts over time and have a decent playing and sounding instrument.

Steven Pearce · Post by **Steven Pearce** » 15 Dec 2019 2:38 pm

I agree with David Ball, the wood does really make a difference.
Unplugged, a steel will give you an idea of tone and sustain.
When I bought a Gretsch years ago, they had a mahogany body
and a sparkle black body. The black steel weighs a mortal ton! I call
it the Beast. The wood is a ply made up of glued together who knows
what. But the sustain vs the mahogany is incredibly different.

I ended up with both...the lighter wood has a softer tone, works ok with different music.
As far as string width, I played the blue Magnatone for 30 years and was used to the spacing. The Gretschs were too close. SO I got some angle stock and away we go.

Brad Richard · Post by **Brad Richard** » 15 Dec 2019 3:52 pm

Well, I didn't last long

. I bought an RK RG-32 on ebay for $81. It was listed "for parts", but the only problem I could see is the bridge was missing. Otherwise, if the photos are accurate, everything else looks good. Won't know until it arrives.

Bill Groner · Post by **Bill Groner** » 28 Dec 2019 2:34 pm

Dom Franco:
IMO the wood used does not make that much difference in sound.
(I have built dozens of lapsteels using Alder, Poplar, Oak, Cherry, Mahogany, Hickory, Ash, Maple, paduk, and other woods I can't even name)

The main difference I find in the woods, is weight, and hardness. The sustain difference is very subtle.

I bought a piece of curly maple. When I got it, it was very light in weight, and seemed to be very soft. It worked almost like pine. I did not have a good feeling about it. I finished it up the day before Christmas and I was very happy how it turned out, but I still had doubts about how it would sound since the wood seemed soft. Much to my delight, it sounded great without being wired up and had a lot of sustain. I wired it yesterday and I believe it is my best sounding one yet. Grover mini's, Lace Pup, just like the others.

So maybe it's the wood, maybe it was luck, but I sure do like it. I haven't weighed it, but I think it's under 4 pounds and just 28" in length. When I get a chance, I will post some pics if anyone is interested.

Joe Elk · Post by **Joe Elk** » 28 Dec 2019 3:12 pm

Post it Bill!
Joe Elk Central Ohio

Bill Groner · Post by **Bill Groner** » 28 Dec 2019 5:53 pm

Here it is Joe.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 30 Dec 2019 9:10 am

Brad Richard wrote:Well, I didn't last long . I bought an RK RG-32 on ebay for $81. It was listed "for parts", but the only problem I could see is the bridge was missing. Otherwise, if the photos are accurate, everything else looks good. Won't know until it arrives.

Good move if it has no other issues. All you need is a straight steel rod or a spare guitar bridge to get you rolling.

I have found excellent deals on vintage lap steels on Craigslist. If you put some cash aside, watch diligently and are patient, something will show up. Got the Rickenbacker Silver Hawaiian in my avatar for three bills and two Maganatone lap steels with matching amps (also in avatar) for about the same. In the meantime the RK will let you find out if you want to move up to a better instrument some day.

Peter Jacobs · Post by **Peter Jacobs** » 30 Dec 2019 9:28 am

Bill, another beauty! I love the design, finish and proportions. The light weight is a bonus. I really like the transition to the headstock - if you get a chance, could you post some additional pics? Thanks for sharing your beautiful work!

Bill Groner · Post by **Bill Groner** » 30 Dec 2019 3:25 pm

Peter Jacobs wrote:Bill, another beauty! I love the design, finish and proportions. The light weight is a bonus. I really like the transition to the headstock - if you get a chance, could you post some additional pics? Thanks for sharing your beautiful work!

Thanks Peter. Don't know if any of these are what you were looking for?

Brad Richard · Post by **Brad Richard** » 31 Dec 2019 8:37 am

Well, to take this discussion back down many notches, the RK showed up and was as pictured (whew). The bridge is missing as I expected and also the nut. I'll probably make a nut from a Reso bone nut blank. I messaged RK about the bridge, but haven't heard back. If I can't get an RK bridge I'll just make one out of alum. angle. Probably change out the pots too. It'll never be like one of Bill's beauties, but it will be fun to putz around with it. Put on a set of strings, get out my fingernail clipper and rock it!

Gene Tani · Post by **Gene Tani** » 1 Jan 2020 12:13 pm

I've tried a few of the RK's, they're very playable tho the bridge and tuners are flimsy, pickup is a little harsh, but if I got one, I wouldn't bother w/upgrades, I'd save up for a Melbert, Rukavina, Georgeboards, Asher type lap. First thing to do is to put springs/foam under the pickup and get it set at right height.

There's a few places to get preslotted (or not) bridges. Ryan Rukavina makes really nice lap steels, everything except tuning machines (he winds his own pickups), I have one it's a great instrument

https://reverb.com/marketplace?query=rukavina

https://www.guitarpartsfactory.us/index ... y&path=448

https://www.georgeboards.com/parts.html#nuts

Brad Richard · Post by **Brad Richard** » 1 Jan 2020 3:52 pm

Thanks much for the info., Gene. I don't plan to upgrade much. The nut and bridge costs are negligible and I'm sure I've got some better pots laying around I can use. I'll definitely adjust the pup if needed. What would you say is the right height or distance from the strings?

Gene Tani · Post by **Gene Tani** » 1 Jan 2020 6:11 pm

I'll bet there's lots of variance in their pickup windings and how they're (not) setup, based on playing a couple at a time at my local joint https://www.tradingmusician.com/lap-steel-guitars

There's no right height, run the guitars output straight into audio interface or mixer, listen w/good headphones for a bell like tone, raise it til it sounds like you're running thru dirt pedals, lower til you start losing body and you'll know where the middle is.

Brad Richard · Post by **Brad Richard** » 2 Jan 2020 10:12 am

Gotcha! Thanks