Took the Tone Master Plunge

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 28 Nov 2019 4:42 am

Dan: Did I sell you a black Super Pro a bunch of years ago? If so is that it? You sure make it sound great.
I'm kind of on the fence still with the Twin TM. It's evidently a profile of a Twin (and a great one). The Kemper really excels at profiles and there are unlimited choices of amps for different purposes. A lot of people don't like messing with the menu thing but once you get it set up it's just a push of a button to a whole different thing with any amp set any way for any tune. I don't know why but I kind of want that Twin anyway though.
The A/B: To me it seems like there is an almost imperceptibly thin veil over the B. Could be mic placement. Tonally they sound identical.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 28 Nov 2019 5:39 am

Scott: I got this Super Pro in a trade with Al Vessel. (What ever happened to Al????) But we may have dealt each other equipment over the years. I made a list this morning, and I've owned 24 amps (!) since 2005 (not counting a few that I purchased but determined that they were not for me before I ever took them on a gig). Yes: I have a problem.

You should really check out the Tone Master. As I play it more today (just got it yesterday) I am starting to appreciate how much the cabinet itself is part of the Twin "feel." No matter how well this or any other modeling amp captures the tone of the original, I don't think you can get that visceral in-your-gut feel of the Twin without the open back, 2x12 cab. Conversely, as I play it more I am also starting to hear more minute differences between this and my 71 Twin. Live gigging will be the real test, but I'm pretty sure the subtle differences I am noticing will be a wash on stage, especially with a full band. I don't have a "loud" gig until late December, so I cant say for sure until then.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 28 Nov 2019 5:50 am

Okay: I took Jack's suggestions and recorded a few more clips (Amp A and Amp B are the same as in my earlier file). I removed the Matchbox in all of these clips. As indicated below, some are with onboard reverb, while others go back to rev+delay from the Zoom Ms50G.

Clip 1: Amp A onboard Rev ///// Amp B onboard Rev/////Amp A ext Rev+delay/////Amp B ext Rev+delay

Clip 2: Amp A onboard Rev ///// Amp B onboard Rev/////Amp A ext Rev+delay/////Amp B ext Rev+delay

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 28 Nov 2019 6:18 am

Where do you put the mic when there are two speakers?

I still set it in the middle of the amp (or speakers). Right or wrong, just the way I do it.

Clips not found for "B" in Clip 2.

Even though I have a TM Twin, I couldn't tell which one was what amp.

Dale McPherson · Post by **Dale McPherson** » 28 Nov 2019 7:07 am

Either way you go, there is something magical between a Fender twin and a ShoBud.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 28 Nov 2019 4:10 pm

Amp B clips should be fixed now.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 28 Nov 2019 7:00 pm

Hi Dan, I listened to the last batch of clips you posted and Amp A sounds quite a bit better than Amp B, in my opinion. Amp B sounds dull and lifeless compared to Amp A, in every example. That's how I'm hearing it anyway.

gary pierce · Post by **gary pierce** » 28 Nov 2019 7:53 pm

Amp A has more clarity, and string separation, and is the keeper, whatever amp it is.
It might be the speakers being different in the two amps, but my ears tell me amp A is the tube twin.

Larry Dering · Post by **Larry Dering** » 29 Nov 2019 4:31 am

I'm in agreement with the others on amp A. It's more clear and possibly a tad louder than B. Both sound excellent to my ears. I would choose A over B because of the tone and clarity.

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 29 Nov 2019 5:13 am

I'm living in suspense.

Dennis Brion · Post by **Dennis Brion** » 29 Nov 2019 5:15 am

I think amp a is a more full sound, wouldn't throw b away though if I had it....lol

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 29 Nov 2019 6:55 am

The overwhelming consensus is that Amp A sounds better than Amp B. As many have surmised, Amp A is the '71 Twin through a 15" JBL, Amp B is the Tone Master Twin through its neo Jensens. I would agree with the general assessment that the 71 sounds clearer an more vibrant than the TM.

Here's what's odd, though: although I can hear that disparity when A-B-ing them live, the difference in the room is subtle, whereas in the recordings it is much more dramatic. There are several reasons I can imagine why this is so, but the simplest explanation is that a 71 Twin through a '77 15" JBL sounds better than a Tone Master through two brand new 12" neo Jensens, and the mic is removing whatever subjective judgement I am injecting into my hearing of the two amps. Because let's be real: those of us who are too old to be hauling around a Twin would really like a 33Lb version to be an acceptable substitute. It's easy to imagine that we hear the TM Twin as good enough because we want it to be good enough. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's happening here, but it is certainly possible.

Another likely possibility is that a well broken in Peavey/JBL 15" speaker sounds better than a single neo Jensen 12". A single, because that's all the mic is getting. I suppose if I were slightly less lazy, I could haul out another mic and stand and mic both Jensens at once to get a better representation of the TM (and bridge the gap between what I am hearing in the room and what I am hearing on the recording). But I am pretty sure the greater clarity and liveliness of the 71+JBL is there whether one hears a single Jensen or the pair.

Soooooo.....as I alluded to upon taking the TM out of the box and after A-B-ing them for a day, I can hear differences in the room, to the TMs disadvantage, but they are subtle (or at least subtler than I am hearing in the recordings). This raises the $999 question: is it wort owning Twin that sounds good, but not as good, that is only 33Lbs, has a built in attenuator, and has a line out? Gigging with it is the only way to answer that, I think. Jack and Dave say the TM passed this test (as have others on another thread). I'll have my first chance on Sunday.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 29 Nov 2019 7:36 am

There's one more thing. You are comparing a (well) broken in 15" speaker to a brand new, not broken in 12" speaker.

A better comparison would be to use the same speaker for both amps.

There will be and is a difference between the real Twin and the modeled twin. No getting around that. In my case the difference between a 33 lb amp and a 90+ lb justifies the 33 lb version for my 82 year old body.

Craig Bailey · Post by **Craig Bailey** » 29 Nov 2019 7:37 am

Give us a report after your gig Sunday...Thanks for sharing all this info with us.

Craig

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 29 Nov 2019 7:55 am

Also, if I understand correctly, the tube twin is in a split cab with the JBL in a closed back cabinet v. the open back combo amp with the neos. That might make some difference. Not that I would suggest a re config just for a test.

As Jack states, it will be interesting to hear the TM after a few hours of loosening up the Jensens.

Overall, I think the TM sounds very good and is certainly a viable alternative for those looking to lose some tote weight and still have a powerful, capable unit for all occasions. Looks like a winner to me.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 29 Nov 2019 8:24 am

I agree with all of the above. Side by side comparisons in a quiet room are very revealing. But the real test would be on the bandstand. Personally, I would go with the 33 lb amp for gigging. Believe me, no one in the audience or even in the band would notice any difference between the two amps. I bought the 34 lb Quilter Steelaire back in 2014 when they came out and Iâ€™ve never looked back. It took about three gigs to get used to the new sound and now I love it! (And so do my bandmates).

Ben Michaels · Post by **Ben Michaels** » 1 Dec 2019 10:44 am

Very interested in your opinion after your show. I have found many amps that sound great in a individual practice situation get lost in the mix. Too much bass and not enough mids and highs. My live tone is eq'd much different from my practice tone.

forrest klott · Post by **forrest klott** » 1 Dec 2019 11:59 am

Question...are the tone controls on the TM TR more conventional or are they like the original tube version? The biggest challenge Iâ€™ve had with my SF TR is dialing in an acceptable tone. This is after poring over post after post on TR settings. I get that everything is relative to room size, hard or softer surfaces, pickups, but it seems like the tone is either muddy or could blister a beagleâ€™s ear at a hundred yards.

Thanks,

Skeeter

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 1 Dec 2019 12:10 pm

Dan Beller-McKenna wrote:...the simplest explanation is that a 71 Twin through a '77 15" JBL sounds better than a Tone Master through two brand new 12" neo Jensens, and the mic is removing whatever subjective judgement I am injecting into my hearing of the two amps. Because let's be real: those of us who are too old to be hauling around a Twin would really like a 33Lb version to be an acceptable substitute. It's easy to imagine that we hear the TM Twin as good enough because we want it to be good enough. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's happening here, but it is certainly possible.

Another likely possibility is that a well broken in Peavey/JBL 15" speaker sounds better than a single neo Jensen 12".

A third hypothesis could be that, by the time we get to the age where we would look for a lower-weight amp, we have lost some frequency response in our hearing that, were it still present, might make the two amps sound more different.

Brooks Montgomery · Post by **Brooks Montgomery** » 1 Dec 2019 12:18 pm

Jim Cohen wrote:
Dan Beller-McKenna wrote:...the simplest explanation is that a 71 Twin through a '77 15" JBL sounds better than a Tone Master through two brand new 12" neo Jensens, and the mic is removing whatever subjective judgement I am injecting into my hearing of the two amps. Because let's be real: those of us who are too old to be hauling around a Twin would really like a 33Lb version to be an acceptable substitute. It's easy to imagine that we hear the TM Twin as good enough because we want it to be good enough. I'm not saying that's necessarily what's happening here, but it is certainly possible.

Another likely possibility is that a well broken in Peavey/JBL 15" speaker sounds better than a single neo Jensen 12".
A third hypothesis could be that, by the time we get to the age where we would look for a lower-weight amp, we have lost some frequency response in our hearing that, were it still present, might make the two amps sound more different.

Yep, for sure. The joy of not groaning, straining, and chipping sheetrock and banging the paint on corners and furniture shuffling with a 70lb amp as I move it in and out of my house, has, no doubt, influenced my tone analysis ðŸ˜Ž

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 1 Dec 2019 12:28 pm

I hear ya! I'm considering getting the new Quilter TT12. I've been playing the Steelaire for several years now, but if I can reduce the weight of my amp from 34 lbs to 24 lbs... I'm all in! Also, the band I play with now uses tiny amps. The guitarist plays a 25 watt amp with a 10" speaker!

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 1 Dec 2019 4:17 pm

Forrest: Exact same tone controls as a standard Twin Reverb. I actually find those much easier to dial in than most amps I've owned. The trick is to turn up the mids and turn down the bass, especially as you turn up the volume. Quite unlike a Peavey amp. (Of course, almost all amps need more mids on stage than in the studio, in order to cut through the mix.)

Here's my nagging (strictly personal) issue. Six months ago I plugged into a '71 Deluxe at a recording session and instantly remembered how much I like tubes. I was reminded of the sound I was always trying to get out of my Quilters (and Peaveys before that). Great amps in their own right, but a different sound from a Fender tube amp. But here I find myself reflexively lunging at the TM Twin because it weighs only 33lbs and captures the characteristic tone of a Twin. But: didn't I just go through this? Selling my Quilters and buying a Deluxe Reissue? splitting my Twin back up into two pieces so it would be (almost) manageable for gigging? loving the recaptured sound I had been chasing with SS and Class D amps for the past several years? I like the Tone Master a lot, but I still need to decide whether it warrants a major (for me) investment when I have a Twin and a Deluxe reissue that I like somewhat better.

My ears keep saying, "Yeaaahhhh, but: the 71 Twin has all of the tone you're aiming for, don't spend $1000 on something that's just really close," while my back keeps saying, "Dude! Are you crazy?? 33lbs! T-H-I-R-T-Y- T-H-R-E-E P-O-U-N-D-S!!! That tube twin chassis in a head cab weighs 45 lbs by itself. One of these days you're gonna go to pick it up and I'm going to give out. It's close enough! Keep the Tone Master!!!"

Oh, these voices in my head!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 1 Dec 2019 4:51 pm

Dan, I think the TM TR is a reasonable compromise between sound and weight. It's "close enough" to the classic Fender tube sound that you love and it's lightweight. Why not keep the Tone Master, sell the 71 Twin head (and don't look back), and use your Deluxe reissue for recording sessions, playing at home and playing small rooms.

Joseph Napolitano · Post by **Joseph Napolitano** » 1 Dec 2019 5:22 pm

The single notes on amp A sound a tad fuller. Have you tried amp B with a Black Box, Freeloader, Matchbox, etc.? Might be a simple way to make a significant difference.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 2 Dec 2019 4:49 am

Joseph: I had the matchbox on for both amps, but the Tone Master needed the tone on the matchbox set a little brighter. No doubt boosting the gain would help it match the 71, at least in volume

Doug: You're probably right. I won't sell the 71 Twin, though. Best sounding steel amp I've ever owned. Bob Metzger modded channel 1 for steel (and did a few other things) to make an already good steel amp great.

My gig last night was snowed out, so I'll have to wait for this coming Saturday to take the TM out for a real-life test.