Use of Tablature

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 12 Feb 2006 5:34 pm

I used to be totally opposed to learning to play guitar (6 string) by tablature. The reason was, I met many guitar players who could play songs, but knew nothing about the scales or chord positions or what they were doing. They just memorized the tablature off a website. That was a big frustration for me, because I would have to explaing to them what to do if the singer wanted to sing in a key other than what they had learned. They could never go to a jam session and take a ride on song they never heard before, and to me,the ablility to do that was important. On steel, I have actually ordered a couple of tab books and found that if one pays particularly close attention to what he is playing over what chord, he can actually learn many ways to play and how to move from one chord to the next. However, that is ONLY because I knew music theory and how it all comes together prior to taking up the steel guitar. I also realized that steel tab can actually teach a person the different chord positions and how to fill voids in the music by using various “color chords” to make the music more full and meaningful. I emailed my teacher a few days ago and conveyed to him some frustrations I was experiencing in my playing. His response was probably very accurate: “ James, your starting to learn about what you don’t know, but need to know, and that is where is the block in your learning process is.” A pretty astute statement if you think about it. How do you guys feel about learning basic positions and then using tablature to expand upon that knowledge? I DO NOT want to be a song player; I want to be a steel player. Those of you who understand that last sentence, will know where I am coming form….. Thanks for your input……James

Matt Greene · Post by **Matt Greene** » 12 Feb 2006 7:43 pm

I am preety new to the steel but I don't see anything wrong with tablature if used the right way. Of course I learned to play guitar before I even knew what tablature was. Guitar tab never helped further my guitar skills thats for sure. I'd rather just pick out leads by ear.

That being said, I have found steel tab very useful because it transposes so easily. It is great in terms of licks, fills, turnarounds and so forth. But useless (to me) for really understanding the neck.

I don't know how far down the road you are in your playing but the most helpful material I have ever found was the late Jeff Newman's up from the top series. If you follow it properly you can't help but learn and improve. It is a backdoor tool for truly understanding the neck. When I say "backdoor" I mean it sneaks up on you, he makes it fun because you have the rhythm tracks and are making "music". But before you know it a picture starts to form and by the time it does, it's stuck.

Matt

Ernest Cawby · Post by **Ernest Cawby** » 12 Feb 2006 11:57 pm

If you block in the music like Jeff teaches you can learn to transpose, you take what you know and move everything up or down so many frets.One good way to start is to go from like G to A, every thing moves up 2 frets, once you catch on to this it starts to get easy.

ernie

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 13 Feb 2006 2:03 am

I think tab is a good learning tool for beginners, but it should not be relied on as a crutch.

Remember when you were a kid learning how to ride a bike and you had those extra training wheels in the beginning to help you get started? As some point you took them off.

I think tab should be like that. Use it to learn the pedal positions, but like the training wheels, stop using it as soon as possible.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 13 Feb 2006 3:24 am

James,
Tab is what you make of it!
It seems that you are now at the stage where curiosity (sp?) start 'getting in the way'. Like your teacher said!
Many melodies can be played without having to move from, say,the Root non-pedal, and pedalled four and five chords....but that would make steel playing very boring. So, as an exercise, for a tune that you have tab for, try (without the tab) to get most of the melody by just using the basic positions, as I said earlier,.... now go to the tab and see how the melody is put together by moving over the fretboard. the 'coloring' of the notes used, and their positional relationship to the chord structure,.... will give you a fair idea of how to approach melody playing on the steel. But, those same melody lines can be treated as licks, of filler lines, in another song. Maybe at some stage you should have a one-on-one session with your teacher to work on this approach. There's much more to be said, but let's not hog the thread

Regards,
Nic

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John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 13 Feb 2006 6:06 am

I am sitting down with tab (with no steel) and going (SLOWLY) note by note to "see" what the notes are (relative to the open strings) and making adjustments for the pedals/levers by adding the "MuSymTab" symbols that Jimmie Crawford used (and Herb Steiner uses) to the tab, to indicate what the pedals and levers do.

It's just the way I think; I want to know what the hell the notes are, and what the chord of the moment is...Whether I am playing guitar, mandolin, pedal steel, or arranging for groups. Otherwise, it is just mechanics. YMMV.

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[This message was edited by John McGann on 13 February 2006 at 06:34 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Feb 2006 6:36 am

If I spend half a day figuring out an arrangement or transcribing a brilliant solo, I'll be really p!$$ed off if I have to do it again in a year or two because I didn't write it down. That's how I use tab. It's also an invaluable teaching aid, although I don't do much of that these days.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 13 Feb 2006 7:52 am

I want to know what the hell the notes are, and what the chord of the moment is...

Exactly!
Both my wife and daughter play classical piano, and when I showed them the chord progression 1maj, 2min, 3min, 4maj, 5maj, 6min, 7dim, 8maj, they looked at me like I was a pig from Mars.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 13 February 2006 at 07:57 AM.]

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 13 Feb 2006 8:00 am

Exactly what Larry Bell said.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Feb 2006 8:26 am

James,
There is a difference in tab. I really am disappointed with tab when that is all it is.
When I write tab, I like to include the musical notation, the chords and the lyrics.
After you have played this type of tab long enough you will see the correlation between what you are playing and the music it originated from. Now you are on the way to being a musician and not just a pedal pusher.
Erv

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Feb 2006 8:31 am

it's a tool that should be used at the musicians descretion...

Kinda like a road map..

But I will state that if a player gets locked into tab..any Instrument...it will be a tuff journey...at some point thay should cross over and be able to relate to what the TAB is stating.

I don't think it's much different for those who sight read only and cannot play by ear..

I have played with fine keyboard players who could sight read only..but take away the music..and ..well..there is no music..

same concept...

tab is a fine tool..

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TPrior
TPrior Steel Guitar Homesite

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Feb 2006 8:54 am

Tony
What do you mean by 'locked into tab'?

What I hate to see is a player who can't play ANYTHING if it isn't in front of his nose on a sheet of tab. If that's what you mean, I wholeheartedly agree. However, on an instrument with 10 or more different ways of playing a single note (I found 14 different E's above middle C on my single neck guitar), some notation of string/fret/pedal is better for me than standard notation. Standard notation breaks down at that point. I do have ways of denoting timing on my own tab but sometimes do jot down standard music notation of note values if it's particularly tricky.

I firmly believe that, at least for me, tab serves a purpose -- one of archiving mechanical position information for a passage of music played on the steel guitar. I have also noticed that many steel players who use tab ONLY READ IT. That's a shame, because it sometimes tricks them into thinking they've become a musician, which couldn't be further from the truth. No matter how proficient they've become at reading tab off a page, they've only become a MUSIC BOX if they have to rely on a page of notes someone else has written. IMHO, a steel player becomes a creative musician when he/she can come up with original arrangements, ideas, and musical statements. At that point, it's great to be able to write it down -- like I said b4 -- tab works great for me to fill that need. ALL THIS IMHO.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 13 Feb 2006 8:55 am

James....I know exactly what your talking about!! For the first 2 years of my playing, I was doing exactly like your guitar playing friends. I could play a lot of songs but actually they were only memorized. I knew nothing about "what" I was playing. After I realized the trap I had fallen into, I swore to never use tab again.

After some lessons with Reece Anderson and learning how music/songs are constructed, I found I could use tab in a productive way to help expand my knowledge of the neck.

I believe tab can be useful if used in the proper way and NOT just memorized. I think it should be taken apart and every note/chord identified. This is what Reece's "SmartTab" does.

I like to label each "position" with the type chord, as in, minor, aug, sus etc... and also determine if it's a passing, substitution or root chord.

This will expand your knowledge of where the same chords are located in different places as well as with different voicings.

I sometimes take tab and get the writers idea on the song then mix it with my own while expanding my use of the available playing positions.

I strongly suggest that tab be used to learn how to play the guitar and not just the song it's written for.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 13 Feb 2006 12:12 pm

Larry, "Locked into the Tab"..

Can only play the written Tab..

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 13 Feb 2006 1:15 pm

Hi all,

on one of the (innumerable) earlier threads on this topic, someone suggested an inbetween sort of notation, such as that used by classical guitarists: regular musical notation but with the frets indicated to help with myriad possible positions any given note can be played on the steel. Here's a sample of how that might work for the steel using Buddy Emmons arrangement of Wild Mountain Thyme (for something most of us will be familiar with by ear, I imagine).

The numbers in circles indicate the fret. It would be possible to add in string numbers but this could get pretty messy. Once you know which fret, the strings (and pedals/levers) become pretty obvious. Only need to put in a fret when the bar position changes.
Of course, this is only going to work if you can read a little music, so it is not meant to "replace" tab. Moreover, I think tab serves a very useful purpose as others have mentioned above, by showing how the fretboard is put together, so to speak.
Nevertheless, for those like John who want to know what the notes are (as I often do too), this system might be a nice in between.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, Peavey Heritage VTX

[This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 13 February 2006 at 01:17 PM.][This message was edited by Dan Beller-McKenna on 13 February 2006 at 01:20 PM.]

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 14 Feb 2006 4:01 am

My main purpose for Tab is to learn the melody of a song. I wonder how many players can play the complete melody of a song without improvising when they get lost in playing the melody?
I memorize the Tab/melody and then change the arrangement to suit me. This process might only apply when you are the featured player as a solist, duet or trio.
Tab also can serve the purpose of learning the chord progressions of a song your not familiar with.
There is some Tab arrangements that are written so well, I would not change a thing.
Does everything have to be original from you?[This message was edited by Richard Gonzales on 14 February 2006 at 04:02 AM.]

Russ Rickmann · Post by **Russ Rickmann** » 14 Feb 2006 8:51 am

Fellow formites,

I’m sure the debate on tab, or the use of tab, will rage on for years to come…..no doubt. How we approach the use of tab or what our mind set is concerning tab will determine if in fact, this is a useful tool. I personally believe it is.

There is no doubt there is a number of great players out there who have never read or used tab. In fact if we look back, many of the old school players did not have tab at their disposal, including myself. Everything learned was done by observing other players, by slowly working out ideas and arrangements, by rote, or simply a hit and miss process until the music sounded correct to the ears of the player. Now you just have to hope you’ll remember what you accomplished on your next practice session! To the dismay of many, this may be a starting over situation. The use of tab in this application is simply a tool used to help the player remember what notes follow what notes.

Think about this, with out the use of tab would one remember all of the information Jeff shared at his seminars? Man, a player’s head would be spinning after leaving his Top Gun School!! How about a session or two with Reese Anderson! I can’t imagine trying to remember everything he would have to share. Granted, the use of a video recorder or audio recorder will document everything the instructor taught…..now you just have to remember where what you want to work on is on the tape. Of course with tab you can go right to where the information you want is located.

Another situation that comes to mind is a beginner that is in their late 40s or early 50s with no musical knowledge. This is a person who has no desire to play on a stage with a band, and just wants to play the instrument for their own pleasure. What would be used to help this person begin their journey? Would this student have the time necessary to learn to read music, and then apply this to the neck and learn where all of the notes are on the neck? Time wise we all know what we’ve invested in learning this instrument. An arrangement of a song written out in tab would surely save some precious time for this student. And in turn bring them pleasure and satisfaction in knowing that they can play a song. Make sense?

IMHO, tab is an aid, not a crutch, to be used most successfully in conjunction with a knowledgeable instructor. Using tab as a guide, in addition to learning the applied use of such information from the instructor, the student then needs to analyze, digest, and transpose this information to all applicable keys. This will require a lot of time and initiative on the part of the student but in the long run will be worth the effort. Of course writing out the new arrangements, scales, or lines, in new keys will also help the student in remembering the new information. In addition, the student can visualize where the lines are on the fretboard, and hopefully retain the visual image as to the application.

For the accomplished player this is an invaluable aid in helping in the development and retaining of new ideas. There may be a situation where a player is working on a line and stumble across an idea where there may not be enough time to work it out or commit it to memory…..a few seconds for writing it out will document the line and you’ll have it to work out on the next practice session. And heck, at my age I may just not remember what I was working on at all!

Use of tab in conjunction with video or audio tape will not only help to cut down the learning time, but the student/player will have the information to refer back to at a later date if necessary. It’s not the where-with-all to learning to play the steel guitar, but it does serve a purpose.

A few ideas to consider and add to the value of the written word….or tab as the situation may be. Russ

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 14 Feb 2006 10:33 am

Echoing what Russ said, try remembering everything Big E taught in his week long C6th seminars without tab.

I would think you would always like to be able to go back and review those resources.

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 14 Feb 2006 3:43 pm

Russ and John, I couldn’t agree with you both more. But, I was talking more along the lines of what Tony and Larry Bell were talking about. When I was at an open Jam one night playing Tele, there was another tele player on stage. He was calling most of the songs and the singer would do them. I noticed that several times the singer would step back and Phil would do a fiddle solo, and the other tele player would do a solo. I began to notice that every time the singer cut us lose a little, the other tele player always let me take 2 solos or more and he never did a solo unless he called out the song. Later that night, I was visiting with him and he asked me for guitar lessons. I found that odd since he played his solos pretty darn well. My response to him was "what in the world do you think I know that you don’t already know." He told me, "Man, I wish I could just take off on a lead like you do anytime someone signals me to." Then he asked, "How do you know all those songs?" When I told him I really didn’t know most of the songs we played, he was stunned. I told him all I did was apply theory and stick pretty close to scale patters associated with the progression. I told him if he wanted to be safe, he could just hang around the pentatonic scale and bend the 2 note a lot and he could pull off some solos without really knowing the song. He looked at me like I was from mars. I asked him how he learned to play guitar and he told me he learned by memorizing the tab off an internet website. I talked to him a while longer and found out he had no idea what a minor chord was and he didn’t know the chord progressions to most of the songs, he just knew the leads from memorizing the solos off a website. I realized about a week ago I might be doing the same thing on steel he did on lead, and that was scary to me. When I realized it, Russ Rickmann can attest to the fact that I emailed him and told him I needed another lesson ASAP as I had fallen into a bad situation that I wanted desperately to avoid. I really posted because I think it’s very important that other beginners try to avoid this path, but to avoid it, you must first realize you’re on it. When you sit down to a steel as beginner and you work yourself to death on a tab and all of a sudden you’re sounding pretty good to yourself and your playing along to a backing track, it’s exciting. That excitement can drive a beginner, like myself, to want to learn more song, FAST, because its so much fun hearing yourself play something that sounds musical. I am of the opinion that it is that excitement that sometimes can be perceived as more of an accomplishment than it really is. Before someone gets hurt feelings, please let me say this, I am NOT saying playing a song and sounding good with a tab book is not an accomplishment, all I am saying is, one must be careful and not let the excitement divert you from the real mission. The missions is to play steel guitar and understand the dynamics of the instrument so that you can grow with it and begin to make your own music and develope your own style. That is the mission for me anyway. That other tele player did a good job on his solos, but he is hardly what I would call an accomplished player. Talk to you soon Russ. I thank everyone for all the comments and the considerate conversation that you have added to this thread.....James

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 14 Feb 2006 7:24 pm

James.....it's great you caught yourself before you spent a lot of time memorizing tab. It's a very easy trap to get into and I think there's a lot of players, especially beginners who do that.

I spent the first 2 years of my playing like that and it was exciting, initially. Then, when I realized that I really didn't know what I was doing, it became very aggrivating. Fortunatly I too was able to break that cycle and have been much happier ever since.

Now, when it's my turn to kick off, take a ride or do the fills.....it might not be the best, but it is created "on the spot", it's different most every time but most of all it's fun!!

Russ Rickmann · Post by **Russ Rickmann** » 15 Feb 2006 9:23 am

Great post James and to the point, unfortunately this is a situation that happens to many beginners. The tab becomes a crutch in lieu of an aid, as I mentioned in my last post. I might also add that without the prompting of a teacher or a knowledgeable musician friend, the student will not take the time to analyze why a particular musical line works over a series of chord changes.

A lot of time a student will learn a line by rote and remember that a particular scale/phrase will work over a set of changes. This by no means indicates that the student understands the theory behind what they are doing…..just that this scale/phrase “sounds good” to the listener. And in turn, if the scale/phrase is moved from one fret to a different fret, this will work for addressing that particular key.

I must strongly emphasize again that the onus of progressing musically is upon the student. The tab is an aid, used in conjunction with direction from a teacher, the burden of learning is that of the student. I think the truism of “you can lead a horse to water” is applicable here. “Inquiring minds need to know” is a must.

And as Larry said “tab serves a purpose -- one of archiving mechanical position information for a passage of music played on the steel guitar.” To progress musically it would benefit the student to take the time to analyze the choice of notes in relationship to the given chord changes.

Tony’s reference to tab as, “Kinda like a road map..” Is a very good analogy….but if a student is going to progress musically, keep a designation in mind as to where you want to end……and as we all know, learning is a lifetime journey. Some just seem to journey farther than others.

Anyway, I’m off the soap box. I wanted to share what I’ve experienced over many years of teaching. This, IMHO, has been a proven and true method of passing along information as related to the steel guitar and in a timely fashion. I am in no means lessening the value of learning to read music and applying it to one’s playing……it’s just that not all students/players want to expend the time necessary to delve into that endeavor.

Pursue what ever works…..and as James and the others have said, don’t fall into using only tab as your guide to playing, utilize your mind. Russ

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 15 Feb 2006 12:06 pm

I don't read, but it seems to me that some of the players that do really well studied theory when they were young. I would liked to have had that experience 60 years ago, however, to me, the way this thing works I see "tab" as critical in most cases because of the many different ways to get a "sound". The other day I was fooling around, bored with playing the same old stuff and I developed a killer intro lick. I must have played it over a dozen times. I was convinced that I had it down pat and neglected to tab it. The next day it was gone. Maybe someone had done the same thing before but it was new to me. Just another reason to use tab at certain times.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 15 Feb 2006 12:20 pm

The corespondence course that I wrote for teaching my technique (thumbpick and 4 bare fingers) utilized the same method employed by classical guitar instructors except I used extra lettering for the smaller fingers: Ph=thumb, i=index finger, m=middle finger, a=ring (annular) finger, c=cuatro for smallest finger. These are used above the notes; circled numbers can be applied below the notehead to designate fret numbers. If necessary, caps can be used for other directives. If one would start off using these symbols with a good notation course, he/she could soon learn music without the agony and misconseptions of tab. -----j----

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 15 Feb 2006 3:13 pm

HELP!! When one knows all the chords in all the different positions, knows their scales in the different locations. how is it possible to play a melody that you do not know without using TAB?? Please enlighten me and save me a lot time and effort.
I wish you pros who write a lot of TAB would also give your take on the subject, or do you only write TAB for $$$ ?

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 15 Feb 2006 3:49 pm

Richard,

if you really don't know the melody at all, tab still probably wouldn't help much since it is awkward at best when it comes to rhythm.

Tab is great for what it does, it just doesn't do everything (and for that matter nor does standard notation).

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH