Cabinet drop and tuning ?

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 29 Jan 2006 8:33 am

No matter how you tune JI or ET if for instance you had lets say eight cents cabinet drop on your guitar would you split the difference. For instance tune your E's four cents sharp and your A's four cents flat to match your E's with the pedals down.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 29 Jan 2006 10:28 am

Oh no. Not another cabinet drop thread.Haven't you read?It only exist in your head.

I'm staying out of this boys. I will say. A Jeff Newman verison of tunning works pretty good for me on my guitars with cabinet drop.,,I'm outta here.......bb

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 29 Jan 2006 11:01 am

If you've got 8 cents cabinet drop in a guitar its not tuneable. Throw it in the garbage or get it fixed.

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 29 Jan 2006 11:32 am

Just to keep the record straight I don't own a guitar with eight cents cabinet drop only used the number as an instance.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 29 Jan 2006 11:38 am

That's basically how I tune the cab drop out, Allan.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 29 Jan 2006 1:00 pm

Ditto; also David Doggett.

I still think a rod and turnbuckle, Richard....

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Jan 2006 10:29 pm

Well, splitting the cabinet drop like you have suggested is a good strategy, and that's what I do (this works the same whether you tune JI or ET). This would put you about 4 cents off with either the pedals up or down, and anything less than 5 cents is generally considered acceptable. But this really only matters when you play open at the nut. Anywhere else up the neck your ear and bar should automatically compensate for cabinet drop. I think it is too small a difference to see with your eyes; but your ears should take care of it.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Jan 2006 2:11 pm

Most people tune their E's to the center of the meter -0- with pedals down and go from there. So suppose you do that and then let up the pedals and tune the G# to the -0- mark. You might think you're tuning straight up but you're not because the E's are now sharp.

A lot of people who say they tune straight up are actually tempered sweeter than ET because of cabinet drop. The subtle effects of cabinet drop retuning are accounted for in the E9th copedent's basic design.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Jan 2006 2:15 pm

The key is letting up and tuning the G# to the E BY EAR, no matter what it says on the meter.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 30 Jan 2006 6:26 pm

Kevin,
it might amount to the same thing, but I tune the G#s to the 8th string harmonic at the fourth fret. This seems to work very well.

My big problem is those *&%^#!* 1st and 7th strings against the open 5th and 10th strings vs. pedal A down on 5+10. I think my Dekley has too *little* cabinet drop; I could use some flatting on 1 and 7 with the A pedal down.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, Peavey Heritage VTX

Don Ricketson · Post by **Don Ricketson** » 30 Jan 2006 8:06 pm

b0b, now you're letting facts get in the way...stop that!!

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Mullen D10-8/5
Sho-Bud LDG SD10-3/4
2Evans SE500 Amps 1 Nashville 112
"Making The Stars Shine"
Oh, stay tuned.

[This message was edited by Don Ricketson on 30 January 2006 at 08:11 PM.]

Nathan Delacretaz · Post by **Nathan Delacretaz** » 30 Jan 2006 8:48 pm

From 38 weeks of tuning to a battered old upright piano [at an otherwise very cool theatre gig] through 2004-05, I tend to believe that "cabinet drop" should be managed FIRST in relation to whatever the least changeable instrument in the ensemble is (usually a piano/keyboard), and SECOND, as Kevin says, focusing on the thirds by ear. It ain't perfect, but what is?

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 31 Jan 2006 1:20 am

My big problem is those *&%^#!* 1st and 7th strings against the open 5th and 10th strings vs. pedal A down on 5+10. I think my Dekley has too *little* cabinet drop; I could use some flatting on 1 and 7 with the A pedal down.

Dan, many players use compensators on the crossbars of the A and/or B pedal to flatten strings 1 and 7 slightly . Do a search for "compensators".

Hans

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 31 Jan 2006 8:43 am

Dekley has too *little* cabinet drop

That's why they should come with their own crane and rigging crew...[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 31 January 2006 at 08:44 AM.]

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 31 Jan 2006 9:11 am

How right you are Ray!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 Jan 2006 9:19 am

b0b has a point, but it goes both ways. I actually see more problems with cabinet drop for ET tuning than tuning JI by ear. Suppose you have 8 cents cabinet drop. And suppose you tune all strings to 0 cents with no pedals activated. Your 3rd is 14 cents sharp of JI, but ET tuners claim not to mind that. Now you press the A and B pedals and tune the stops on strings 5 (C#) and 6 (A) to 0 cents. The unpedaled Es drop 8 cents. So now for the A chord the root is 0 cents, the 3rd is 0 cents, and the 5th (E) is -8 cents. The root to 3rd interval is 0 cents (14 cents off from JI, right on for ET). The 3 to 5 interval is now 8 cents, which is about half way between ET and JI, and so sounds a little sweeter than straight ET. But the 5 to 1 interval, which should be about 0 cents for ET and JI, is now 8 cents.

Now suppose we tune the Es with the pedals down, as in b0b's example. The A chord will have 0 cents between all intervals, so the 3rds will be 14 cents sharp of JI, which is normal for ET. Now we let off on the pedals, and the Es rise 8 cents. So now the root is +8 cents, the 3rd is 0 cents, and 5th is 0 cents. The root to 3rd interval will be 8 cents, which is half way between JI and ET, and so will sound a little sweeter than straight ET. The 3rd to 5th interval will be 0 cents, normal for ET, but about 14 cents off for JI. And the 5th (B) will be 8 cents flat of the root, and 8 cents off from both ET and JI.

Those sour root and 5th intervals might be more offensive to our ears than the ET sharp 3rds, and might be one reason so many steelers don't like to tune everything straight up.

If you take the Es from a meter, and tune everything else by ear to JI or somewhere in between, either the whole E chord or the whole A chord will be off by the amount of cabinet drop, but the intervals within the chords will be in tune. The bar and your ear should automatically adjust, except of course at the nut. The situation at the nut can be optimized by splitting the difference. Thus, you will only be off by 4 cents, and only at the nut.

But tuning straight up ET, there will be intervals that are off by 8 cents to either ET or JI, both at the nut and with barred chords. However, you can also split the difference with ET. If you tune your Es 4 cents sharp with pedals up, then they will only be 4 cents flat with the pedals down.

So, splitting the difference of cabinet drop between pedals up and down helps whether you tune by ear, or straight up with a meter.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Jan 2006 11:12 am

Cabinet drop is a big problem if you're trying to tune everything to equal temperament. I suppose that's why Buddy Emmons uses a counter-force equipped Lagrande III.

Most people who tune ET can't hear the problem, though. If they could, they wouldn't tune that way.

ducking...

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 31 Jan 2006 12:49 pm

I think it just missed you...

Excellent assessment, David. I kind of came to the same conclusions, in a less quantified manner.

I borrowed Mike Perlowin's system and simplified it further, detuning the sharps of the psg scale by 2Hz (and tampering from there). The numbers come out like you say, and fall within the range of ET on fourths and fifths. Having to have JI fourths seems to compound the 'cabinet drop' problem.

I think I could put an equal temperament, aurally, on Ed Packard's Beast. A fine instrument tuned that way would sound outstanding to me.

Les Green · Post by **Les Green** » 31 Jan 2006 1:42 pm

JI, ET, Jagwire's or Sit's, tone, cabinet drop, dress codes, black is best, etc., etc. Glad all this wasn't around 50 years ago when I started playing steel! I'd probably have given it up before I got started. Maybe it was.........

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Jan 2006 5:20 pm

Having to have JI fourths seems to compound the 'cabinet drop' problem.

I honestly can't hear the difference between JI and ET on fourths. It's only 2 cents! I don't see how that could have any bearing on cabinet drop, Charlie.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Feb 2006 3:38 am

I could be wrong....
I thought a JI fourth was beatless. (I'm not saying I can hear the difference in pitch, just the beating.)
I'm only saying that due to cabinet drop on the 6th string, I have to split the difference between pedals up and pedals down. That means I can't get a beatless fourth (E/A with the B pedal), but it does fall within an ET fourth.

There probably aren't many piano tuners who try to play pedal steel.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Feb 2006 10:12 am

You tune the G# to the E without pedals.

You tune the A to the E with pedals. At that point the E has "cabinet dropped".

Both intervals are tunable to JI.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Feb 2006 11:41 am

b0b's right. I tried to explain this above. You tune the E chord (pedals up) to the E with no cabinet drop. When you press the A and B pedals for the A chord, the E drops, but you tune the pedal stops to the dropped E. So each chord (E or A) should be in tune with itself. There could be a slight problem if you try to play with just the B pedal down. With the B pedal down, the E should drop to where it was when the B pedal stop was tuned, and the E and A (4th interval) should play in tune. However, the E may not drop to the same extent with just the B pedal as it did with both the A and B pedals. That could cause that 4th interval to be slightly off with the B pedal alone, whereas it would be in perfect tune with both the A and B pedal. In other words, there is no single cabinet drop value. It varies depending on the combination of pedals and levers in use. Lowers can actually cause cabinet rise. When you play multiple raises together, or raises and lowers together, who knows what happens.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Feb 2006 12:45 pm

A pedal steel cannot be tuned perfectly, but it can be played perfectly in tune.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Feb 2006 3:02 pm

I see. That sounds easy.
To me, however, the E/G# is the 'x' factor, the one people are solving for, but I may be looking at it differently. I basically tune each string to as many open and pedaled intervals as I can find. Very tampered.