Emmons Tuning Puzzle - Barrel Fine Tuner Missing?

[Robert Fawcett]

I'm a new player and in the UK which is a land where the PSG is a fairly rare thing.
I have recently bought an Emmons Black Rock, upgraded long ago to 3P 4L.
I have found the forum sticky about tuning a push-pull very helpful but am puzzled by string 5 tuning for the A vs C pedals. What I expected having read the sticky was to find a barrel tuner for the C pedal, but I do not have one. Have I misunderstood, or should I fit one?

Any advice would be much appreciated, I really am very new to this, though absolutely loving it!

[Jim Palenscar]

In general 1/2 tone tuners are only needed when the change is different than another change on the same string.

[Lynn Stafford]

In general 1/2 tone tuners are only needed when the change is different than another change on the same string.

Robert,

Jim is correct. For example; you'd only need a 1/2 tone tuner on the C pedal 5th string raise if you wanted to tune that C# note a few cents lower than the A pedal 5th string raise to C#.

By the way, the shock spring sandwiched between the swivel and collar for your 10th string raise is broken and appears to be collapsed. Also, the back stop thumb screw for the E to F lever is backed out too far. That screw is there to prevent the lever from moving backwards too far. That could allow the raise hook for the 8th string to come off of the raise finger. The spring that's currently being used between the 4th string tuner and collar should be removed. That will allow you to get a consistent F note raise. The spring that's on the 3rd string raise may not be needed as well, depending on how the it and 6th string is rodded. Actually, I can't tell for sure but it looks like it may be collapsed as well. The rodding for the E to Eb lowers doesn't look correct either.

You may want to try and reach out to my friend, Mark Dunn there in the UK. He may have a spare spring or two and if he's not too busy, he might even be willing to help you get your Emmons properly set up.

[Robert Fawcett]

Thank you folks - I'll look into that advice Lynn, much appreciated.

What I'm not understanding (and I realise this may be super-clueless of me) is that my A pedal raise is in tune and my C pedal raise on the same string is flat.

What I read in the sticky was this:

3. The Third Procedure (tuning the changer, or strings and changer with the lesser pitch changes):

This will require you to locate a 'tuning nut' on the undercarriage. There will be one for each lesser pitch change per string. The most common one is on pedal 'C', for string five. This one isn't a lesser pitch than pedal 'A', string five, but it is subordinate. So, it uses the undercarriage tuning nut.

How do I fine tune that C pedal raise?

[richard burton]

To get the fifth finger to raise (with the C pedal) and be the same as when it's raised with the A pedal, move the collar (arrowed blue) ever so slightly in the direction of the white arrow

[Robert Fawcett]

RB,

I'll indeed do that - I actually already have, roughly - I just thought there must surely be a more precise 'proper' way to do it!

Thank you,

R

[richard burton]

On my push pull, I have replaced all the collars that rely on 'hit and miss' positioning with fine tuning screws (albeit home made so therefore non-standard).
This allowed me to get rid of those pesky springs between the bellcrank and the collar, which makes for a much more positive feel when playing.

[Robert Fawcett]

Excellent, fine tuning seems so right there... I'll maybe put in an order with psgparts.com

[Dave Magram]

Hi Robert,

I'd highly recommend Clem Schmitz's bargain-priced booklet "Methodology And Practice In Pedal Steel Guitar" to any Emmons push-pull owner--especially folks who live far away from Emmons push-pull experts.
Clem used to own a steel guitar store and repair shop in Minneapolis, then one in Nashville, where he worked on Emmons push-pulls owned by players such as Mike Johnson.

The 24-page booklet shows how to make simple adjustments to an Emmons push-pull or even take the entire guitar apart and put it back together. In his booklet, Clem explains step by step (with photos) exactly how to disassemble, re-assemble, and adjust push-pull guitars with several clever little tricks that would take a very long time to figure out.

He usually sells the booklet on eBay listed as "Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology P/P Guide Booklet" for $15.
He also sells a combo package of the book and 2 DVDs as " Pedal Steel Guitar METHODOLOGY P/P Book & DVD's Package" for $20.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Pedal-Steel-Gu ... 0598597396
I'd recommend the $20 "combo package".

Emmons push-pull guitars are very reliable and stable and I almost never need Clem's booklet, but it’s great to have for the rare time every 10 years or so when some little Allen screw loosens up somewhere, or a string pitch change isn’t happening the way it should—and you have to leave for a gig in the next 30 minutes.

Clem is a very helpful guy; I've heard that if you are really stuck, he will guide you through the fix via Skype for a very nominal fee.

- Dave

[Robert Fawcett]

Great, Dave, thank you!

EDIT: ordered!

[Jerry Jones]

One detail not mentioned is that all of the greatest raises are tuned with the raise finger hitting the cabinet. The pedal stop must likewise be timed to perfectly match the raise finger contact with the cabinet. That's why it's often suggested to tune the changer by hand first before adjusting any screws at the changer end.

[Robert Fawcett]

Thank you, Jerry...

[Mark Dunn]

Thanks Lynn... your sharp eye doesn't miss much, as I'd expect Just adding to thoughts posted, past experience tells me there's probably additional issues at the changer end, if we looked at the undercarriage - I've emailed Robert.

[Ron Pruter]

WOW! Those PP's are such a mystery to us guys that have never even seen their undercarriage up close. RP

[Paul Norman]

Go to You Tube and go to Tom Vollmer explains Emmons pus-pull. Some interesting stuff here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znYmrWcQCMg&t=8s

[Ron Pruter]

Thanks Paul.