U12 mechanical question

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 5 Feb 2019 7:25 pm

I wonder if the lever that raises string 9 B to D and lowers string 2 to D could be fitted with a feel stop, beyond which string 9 would go back down to C# and string 2 would continue on down to C# ?
Pipe dream? Maybe someone has an idea how this could be accomplished.

Cheers, CR.

Jim Bloomfield · Post by **Jim Bloomfield** » 5 Feb 2019 8:54 pm

Mullen has done it on my new G2 universal. A half stop on the knee lever lowers string 2 to D and raises string 9 to C#. Engage the same lever further to get C# on string 2 and D on string 9.

Not sure if this is exactly what you are talking about...

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 5 Feb 2019 10:55 pm

While I haven't tried it it seems to me that a lowering rod put in one of the faster lowering holes in the changer extending to the bellcrank that raises the B-D could kick in at a certain point and overtake the raising- sometimes that happens due to excessive return spring pressure or the lowering rod being placed too close to the pivot point in the changer anyway and it doesn't seem like it would be an insurmountable task to do it on purpose w a separate rod.

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 6 Feb 2019 12:11 am

Man, you guys are fast.

Jim B., I think I could make that work, since having both strings at D at the same time isn't really necessary, and since I raise the second string back to D from C# on p8 when locked in B6, I could always two foot it if the occasion should arise. Do you know how Mullen implemented this?

The main reason i'm considering this is to extend the stack of fourth intervals lower down the tuning for Evans/Tyner style comping; strings 10,9,7,5,4 would be G#,C#,F#,B,D#. That's the So What voicing. Raise 10 with the B pedal and you have a great 6/9 voicing on 10,9,7,5 and on 4 as well if you raise 4 back to E which my E raise does quite nicely. This will all work in E9 as well.

Pali, that is kind of what I was vaguely thinking. Might be able to get it done with just an extra lower rod (and a half stop). How it will pan out on the Excel changer remains to be seen, of course. But I do have two spare raise holes and all three lower holes available to play with leverages. I can probably make a decent half stop myself, and there is lots of room under the hood on the SD body. And thanks for the hint about the return spring's role in this. I'll let you know how it plays out.

CR.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 6 Feb 2019 4:07 am

Oh man....Jim P's thinking might be the solution to a different problem I've been trying to solve. This might be a very big deal for me. My mind has been locked into inside-the-box thinking. Thanks for letting it out! Cool!

Matt Teske · Post by **Matt Teske** » 6 Feb 2019 3:09 pm

Another option would be to lower string 8, instead of raising from string 9. That way, you could lower string 2 and string 8 down to D with a feel stop, and then continue down to C#. You would have the same thing on 10, 8, 7, 5, 4.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 6 Feb 2019 3:49 pm

My idea really isn't very efficient in that it requires the guitar to kind of chase its tail in that it is raising and lowering the string simultaneously.

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 6 Feb 2019 4:14 pm

Didn't think of that option. Thanks Matt. Will consider.
In the meantime I just re-tuned the 9 raise (on LKL) so it only goes to C# to work with those voicings a bit. It is quick, easy and could be done between tunes on the bandstand. So far so good; could also work for Maiden Voyage and lots of other tunes in that zone. I'm happy to finally find that great rockablly 6/9 ending chord. You need that one for Jitterbug Waltz too.

I've never used a feel stop, so that could be another challenge. I'm looking at the WBS RealStop. Larry Allen uses them, says they are really positive and adjustable and I see from his pictures they make a nice clean, tidy install on an Excel.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 7 Feb 2019 1:01 am

I had Tom Bradshaw put a change like that on my mid 70s MSA D-12 10+10. It was a RKL just for C6, it folded away when I was on E9 which had its own separate RKL. On C6, top and middle C strings raised to C# at a half stop, then when fully engaged, to C went on up to D and middle C went back down to C. So the middle C had a short raise, and also a lowering rod that overcame the raise. Loved that change! It was a little tricky to get the notes to tune and time just right, but it worked.

You can see in this pic, the C6 lever folded up, the E9 lever ready for action; it just folds up and the C6 pulls down when I switched necks. I really asked too much of a guitar with only a double raise/double lower changer. I just had no idea back then about stuff like that.

Chris Reesor · Post by **Chris Reesor** » 7 Feb 2019 2:06 am

Whoa! I'm getting a backache just thinking about lifting that puppy out of the case.

Seriously, though, that's proof that Pali's idea can work, at least with an MSA changer. That Mr. Bradshaw could get all that stuff to work with a 2 up 2 down changer tells us what a crafty fellow he is.

Looks like some onboard electronics on that axe. Buffer? Fuzz?

I may well be headed towards a center lever group for this guitar, so that idea of yours would be perfect on CKL.

Thanks for checking in, John.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 8 Feb 2019 6:40 pm

That MSA had built-in tone and volume knobs, may have had a built-in fuzz, but I think only my earlier MSA Dd-10 had that, very ballsy, really a fuzz, not an overdrive, didn't use it much. This one had a 3 lever C6 cluster, to fit this in the case Tom devised removable lever end for both its vertical levers, very slick.

In the old plywood case it weighed in at 100 lbs! And I played on it for years. Nowadays, I couldn't even lift the thing into my van.

The half stop was a mechanical device, you can see it in the photo.